So what can we expect this year with Texel and SCHRS and the PY systems. Hold the same as 2007 or getting sharpened?

Thanks Simon, that was quick.

OK Simon, at the risk of going off at a tangent, what do you mean by "what was done last year was valid and produced better results"? Have you seen boats that used to win now get beaten, and vice versa? And given that we all basically agree it's the nut on the tiller that makes the difference, how can you judge the effect of the changes?

Go on, it is winter... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Simon

So here goes a contrary comment, concerning the H16 rating which I know. Even with the 1,16 rating it was very difficult to get an acceptable position in a race (with less than 15 knots), now it is even worse (1,146). I dont know why this is so (daggerboards, spi?) but in Spain the rating kills the H16, as no classes come together at a local level and we have to sail in a mixed fleet.

Simon, I dont have the numbers, it is just personal experience sailing with the Hobie 16 against F18 and A class and Tornadoes the last two years in varying conditions. The only times we were able to get into the first three places was 15 kn++. I changed class because of the H16 rating and with the F18 I am much more competitive. My personal impression is backed up by a race last summer where the H16 European Champion and the third in the SA H16 Worlds placed 6 and 7 behind A classes and Tigers that are not even top sailors at our national level (lightish conditions).

The 16 will struggle in the lighter stuff agaist such boats. It's a nature of the boat.

And in a perfect rating system this nature would be well represented by the formulas. Of course, a perfect system does not exist, but in the case of the 16 the schrs does not work well, whereas with more similar boats (F18-T-A) it usually works out fine.

This could indicate for example that the factor applied to centerboard area and aspect is too small. Or maybe it would be nice to have a factor that controls if we have a more efficient rig (with diamonds, controlable mast rotation etc.) which permits more control and therefore permits a sailcut that powers up with less wind.

I guess the influence of these systems on the survival of classes is probably underestimated. A good 16 sailor here gets bored going to local races if he has no chance to obtain a good position. So he only has the national races where we have a 16-only fleet. Given that there are much more local races during the year, he will have more fun if he gets another boat for racing (F18, A etc.). He finally sells the 16 and both the local and national H16 fleets get smaller. That is what seems to be happening in Spain right now.

Wouter, I think a good rating system should try to adapt itself to the existing boats and not vice versa. Texel, although simpler, achieves this probably better than schrs.

And in a perfect rating system this nature would be well represented by the formulas.

That blame can not be assigned to the rating committees or rating systems. It is not so hard to make a measurement based rating system that covers all and even rates cardboard boxes very accurately.

The party that is making the problems are the race committees. For a while (I think in 2004) Texel had two rating numbers for each boat (setup); one for light winds and one for strong winds (trapezing), this is rather effect at taking the larger share of the inequalities, especially between say the H16 and A-cats. So we engineers and raters though we had cracked it. And what do you know ? all the racing committee simply refused to use the new system. It was too complicated they said; which is total BS of course as it was the very same system but now with two rating numbers. I think they even went as far as to agree among themselved to never use it. Loosely translated they simply don't care about any inequalities. They do care about the "perceived" hassle. Another thing was of course that they don't want to get into arguments with sailors why a certain race was marked as a "light winds" or "strong winds" race.

Of course as always the cat sailors themselved were to lazy and disorganised to mount an effective counter campaign and a year later Texel was restored to single number rating that must somehow strike an even balance between light and strong wind race. This means of course that it loose accuracy in both circumstances.

End of story.

Wouter

As I've mentioned before this will produce the most accurate ratings available at any one time. It's a great concept and I'm sure it will prove to be very successful.

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Maybe in the not to distant future we wont be seeing threads like this one