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by Frank N. 05/04/22 07:38 PM
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M32, new MarstrÝm project cat.. #128965
01/16/08 02:10 PM
01/16/08 02:10 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline OP
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Ref: http://www.marstrom.com/index.php?action=get&id=95&category=1

Something new MarstrÝm is working on. Wonder why when he already builds the Vx40? Also, why did they put flat foredecks on the boat when it is pretty accepted that a rounded foredeck is better to prevent pitchpoles. Am I wrong?

While on the site, check the carbon fiber RIB they are building for the Vx40 folks.. A carbon RIB.. I am left speechless.
http://www.marstrom.com/index.php?action=get&id=97&category=1

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: M32, new MarstrÝm project cat.. [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #128966
01/16/08 04:52 PM
01/16/08 04:52 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,203
uk
TEAMVMG Offline
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I guess that an F18 won't be far behind now that their Tornado market is in jeopardy


Paul

teamvmg.weebly.com
Re: M32, new MarstrÝm project cat.. [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #128967
01/16/08 06:03 PM
01/16/08 06:03 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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There is one thing about Marstrom that I never understand.

The reasoning behind their products and why they try complete new designs without any demand or clear pathway to market/succesful class.

Two products of Marstrom are fine.

The Tornado and the A-cat class, both classes were however formed by other people and other builders before Marstrom entered the class for a piece of the pie.

Then they did the M18 and M20, both of which failed spectaculary. There was simply not enough demand for these boats and really nobody was waiting for them either. They sold a handful because of the carbon BLING factor and that was it. Dissatisfied with their allround performance their owners are converted them to sloops.

Seacart 30, by their own admission 15 build and spread over 7 countries, some as far away as south africa. This class can still go either way, so we'll give them another few years to proof the class and concept. However, I do fair they will have a tough battle with the Corsairs and Farriers. But thus far it is not a break through yet.

And now the M32 ?!

[censored], How many new exciting 28 to 35 footer cats and tris have we seen launched in the last few years ? On the swiss lakes we see a new such class every 2 years. And of course we have the Extreme-40, a design and class build by other people although Marstrom builds the boats. How many so far 15 boats as well ?

Who is being serviced by the new M32 ? Who is waiting for it ? Who will buy it and where will they race it. It is too big for beach cat regatta's and to small for of shore races or record attempts. And if it wants to launch its own high profile OD cup cirquit then it has to first compete with the Extreme-40's and come out on top. The E-40's of course having a considerable lead on the M32 in this respect.

But lets say that is all solved somehow. Lets look at the design, another uni-rig ! Say goodbye to the M32, friends. It is another boat who's crew will be praying for perfect upwind beats and claim mastery of the seas by reaching the A-mark first. The first time it does Texel it will be hunted down by smaller overweight sloops (costing only only 1/10 of an M32) like a pack of hungry wolves chasing a wounded kariboe.

And even if it doesn't break this time and comes in 15 minutes before the fleet, I can already hear the comments. "100.000 Euro's devided by 15 minutes = 6666 euro's per minute gained". Because there is one thing that Marstrom garantees, it will cost you a bundle. Ergo only some millionaires will buy it and then loose interest when they discover that pulling 450 kg across the beach is indeed hard work. (something they are not used too ?)


Summarizing, Too large, To heavy (even if it is all carbon and light for its length), too expensive for a recreational daysailor, Too clumpsy to trailor about, not practical as a beach cat, not a practical off shore racer (no shelter or storage rooms), Not a cruiser, Not a Extreme-40, No class and No market demand for such a boat.

Anybody want to place bets on whether this new design/class will be making an impact ?

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 01/16/08 06:15 PM.
Re: M32, new MarstrÝm project cat.. [Re: Wouter] #128968
01/16/08 08:00 PM
01/16/08 08:00 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,200
Vancouver, BC
Tornado Offline
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All of what Wouter says is true...and can be applied to the R33's produced here in the US.

I feel Marstrom makes these kind of boats more out of passion and wanting to have fun than to make a serious business profit from it. Afterall, the core business at Marstrom is in big boat spars and aeronautic parts.
\


Mike Dobbs
Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
Re: M32, new MarstrÝm project cat.. [Re: Tornado] #128969
01/16/08 09:25 PM
01/16/08 09:25 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 829
Charleston, SC
NCSUtrey Offline
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Wow, Wouter, you and I see exactly eye to eye on this one. There's a first time for everything, right?


Trey
Re: M32, new MarstrÝm project cat.. [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #128970
01/16/08 10:38 PM
01/16/08 10:38 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,911
South Florida & the Keys
arbo06 Offline
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Sail up agaainst thr ARC 30?

Re: M32, new MarstrÝm project cat.. [Re: arbo06] #128971
01/16/08 11:02 PM
01/16/08 11:02 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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The add says, "Will beat a 40 footer in speed..." Was he talking about a Volvo Extreme 40 foot cat, or a 40 foot racing mono? It also says it weighs 450KG. What does the Volvo 40 cat weigh?


Blade F16
#777
Re: M32, new MarstrÝm project cat.. [Re: Wouter] #128972
01/16/08 11:03 PM
01/16/08 11:03 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
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Quote

Anybody want to place bets on whether this new design/class will be making an impact ?

Wouter


I think it already has as it's being talked about.

Will it make more people sail cats?

I dunno, but if one person buys one who would have bought a monoslug then that has to be good news.


If Goran wants to spend his research Euro's on this then he is to be applauded for making progress. You may not agree with what he is doing. But he is doing something.

Friend of a Friend has a SeaCart and loves it to bits!


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: M32, new MarstrÝm project cat.. [Re: scooby_simon] #128973
01/17/08 07:29 AM
01/17/08 07:29 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Ohh, I respect Goran for doing stuff, that is not the point.

I only wish he does stuff that has a much better chance at succes and progress the cat scene that way. The impact of "outliers" is severly limited if not negligiable.


Quote

Friend of a Friend has a SeaCart and loves it to bits!



It is the better of the design in my opinion but it isn't any different from the Corsairs and Farriers and as such it doesn't progress the scene beyond the point that they have brought it too. Ergo it doesn't matter whether the Seacart fails or succeeds as the scene will remain as it is.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 01/17/08 07:39 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: M32, new MarstrÝm project cat.. [Re: scooby_simon] #128974
01/17/08 07:44 AM
01/17/08 07:44 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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I would LOVE one of those SeaCarts, but aren't they about 2-3X what a Corsair costs? Are they 100% carbon?


Blade F16
#777
Re: M32, new MarstrÝm project cat.. [Re: Timbo] #128975
01/17/08 08:46 AM
01/17/08 08:46 AM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 23
E
Erwankerauzen Offline
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Erwankerauzen  Offline
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The Volvo X 20 weights 1200 KG which is quite lighter than the old Formule 40 we had 20 years ago, which used to weight 2000 kg with 90 sq mtrs windward.
Marstrom's idea is probably to maximize the ratio: crew weight/boat weight,which is quite similar to horsepower/ weight, that is why with 450 kg, less sail area she will be probably faster than the VX 40.

Re: M32, new MarstrÝm project cat.. [Re: Erwankerauzen] #128976
01/17/08 09:12 AM
01/17/08 09:12 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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Quote

The Volvo X 20 weights 1200 KG which is quite lighter than the old Formule 40 we had 20 years ago, which used to weight 2000 kg with 90 sq mtrs windward


Don't you mean Volvo X-40's? The Volvo X-20 is a different catamaran.


Quote

Marstrom's idea is probably to maximize the ratio: crew weight/boat weight,which is quite similar to horsepower/ weight, that is why with 450 kg, less sail area she will be probably faster than the VX 40.



Thank god for measurement rating systems.

Texel rating Volvo X-40 (with 4 people on board) = 69
Texel rating M32 (with 3 people on board) = 78

Therefor Texel says that the X-40 will beat the M32 by 78/69*3600 = 470 secs with the X-40 finishing the course in exactly one hour. That is roughtly 8 minutes. 13% speed difference is a whole lot for improvements in efficiency to overcome.

Even with a 25 % jib the M32 will only lower its rating to 73 and still be beaten by the X-40.


Now indeed, this all dependent on how much faith you put in Texel to produce accurate rating numbers. However, she was the only system (together with schrs) to have projected the F16's correctly from the very first moment these were launched. Additionally, any errors in this system are made negligiable when the two boats being compared are very similar in setup and general size. I feel this is the case between the X-40 and M32. The M32 being allmost a 80% scale model of the X-40 but without a jib.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 01/17/08 09:17 AM.
Re: M32, new MarstrÝm project cat.. [Re: Wouter] #128977
01/17/08 11:30 AM
01/17/08 11:30 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 207
couldn't resist it
Codblow Offline
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couldn't resist it
I know the seacart flies on one hull only most of the time at hyperballistic speeds, I thought farriers and corsairs were a bit more sedate and generally sailed on two which really puts the seacart a league ahead in performance , or i'm wrong <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

ps when I get too old for beach cats , the seacart's the only one that really gets my vote so far !, just have to wait 20 years for them to depreciate !

Last edited by Codblow; 01/17/08 11:34 AM.
Re: M32, new MarstrÝm project cat.. [Re: Codblow] #128978
01/17/08 12:10 PM
01/17/08 12:10 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline OP
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The seacarts are fast, and indeed designed to be sailed on one hull. As for cost, they are way to expensive. My sailing partner, Frode, and I have a dream about a 28 foot homebuildt racing trimaran in wood. One day we will realise the dream and see what we can do compared to a Seacart or any other multi. Formula28s from the early 90s are still able to give the seacarts a run for the money in the right hands.
I dont think the M32 compares well to the Vx40. It dont have a jib and everything that implies and it dont have a similar hullshape as far as I can see. I dont see the business model behind the boat either, but hope MarstrÝm do well!

What do you think about a carbon RIB.. That had me thinking "are these guys nuts??!?".

Re: M32, new MarstrÝm project cat.. [Re: Codblow] #128979
01/17/08 12:25 PM
01/17/08 12:25 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,200
Vancouver, BC
Tornado Offline
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Though the SeaCart is a thing to behold...I would not want to own one...it is less practical than the Farrier concept since it must be de-beamed for trailering and cannot fit a standard width slip (a Farrier can fold).

Also, I distinguish Farrier's from the Corsairs...the former being my much preferred choice.

Another member in this concept range is the Catri...lighter than a Farrier/Corsair, foldable with Bruce foil assist. However, as Luiz can test, poor/no manufacturing support is the deal killer.

Quote
I know the seacart flies on one hull only most of the time at hyperballistic speeds, I thought farriers and corsairs were a bit more sedate and generally sailed on two which really puts the seacart a league ahead in performance , or i'm wrong <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

ps when I get too old for beach cats , the seacart's the only one that really gets my vote so far !, just have to wait 20 years for them to depreciate !


Mike Dobbs
Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
Re: M32, new MarstrÝm project cat.. [Re: Tornado] #128980
01/22/08 04:36 PM
01/22/08 04:36 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 256
North Europe, Sweden, Uppsala
Hakan Frojdh Offline
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North Europe, Sweden, Uppsala
More info on the M32.

The boat will have water ballast to improve upwind speed and to prevent the boat from capsizing when it is moored. The sail area is roughly 55 m2 + mast area and it will start to fly a hull in the same windrange as the M20. The price will be roughly 100 000 Euros, that is 1/3 of the price of a Vx40 (reducing weight, size and complexity of a boat reduces the price a lot).

One of the reasons for Uni rigg is to keep the cost down and have a "clean" boat. The boat reminds of a scaled up M20 and that means that the number of fittings and manufacturing steps will be similar to the M20 (but you need more carbon).


/hakan

Re: M32, new MarstrÝm project cat.. [Re: Hakan Frojdh] #128981
01/22/08 04:42 PM
01/22/08 04:42 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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And I'll bet the first thing a new owner does is try to add a jib! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />


Blade F16
#777
Re: M32, new MarstrÝm project cat.. [Re: Timbo] #128982
01/22/08 05:09 PM
01/22/08 05:09 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 256
North Europe, Sweden, Uppsala
Hakan Frojdh Offline
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You can't just add more engine to a car, you must stay on the road also....

Some kind of light wind jib is planned but in higher winds it will be uni mode. Adding structure for a jib makes it more complex and more expensive.

The limiting factors for laminate thickness on this size of boat is from the sailing loads, for a beach cat you have other limiting factors like crawling crew members during a capsize, boat handling on the shore and so on. This is probably the reason why you could add a jib to the M20 without any extra carbon in the hulls.

The M32 design uses the twin forestays to get the platform stiff, if you remove them you must replace the twin forestays with something else. The bridle will create high point loads on the hull that must be taken care of and the total side load of the hull will increase.

This boat is uni rigg, if you don't like that buy something else....

/hakan

Re: M32, new MarstrÝm project cat.. [Re: Hakan Frojdh] #128983
01/22/08 05:17 PM
01/22/08 05:17 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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The M20 does need additional structure to handle a jib.

The cost to have the M32 able to handle a jib woulb be very minimal and the performance advantages are well worth it.

Just compare Xander's M20 to Gorans in the last Texel..... Jib is king.


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Re: M32, new MarstrÝm project cat.. [Re: macca] #128984
01/22/08 05:29 PM
01/22/08 05:29 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 256
North Europe, Sweden, Uppsala
Hakan Frojdh Offline
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Hakan Frojdh  Offline
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Macca, where did you get that info from? I talked to Goran about it and according to him the hulls has no extra carbon to handle the increased side loads. Some Dutch guys had a bridle between the hulls in the beginning but they removed it later on.

M20 was first and second round Texel two years ago, uni is KING (or can you really use a race around an island to measure this.....:)

/hakan

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