Wayne, I would say the opposite is true. I know one manufacturer has capacity to build on F18 a day and it's currently servicing a waiting list.

The F18 World council has put the annual build at between 600 and 650. Let me know when you hit 10% of that...

Hmm, 600 to 650 pr year. Great for the F18 class!
What I want to know is how the statistics look for the last 7 years. I am certain the numbers are available as measurement certificates costs money and such things should go into the accounting books. Anybody who has the numbers or knows where to find them?

Ey, macca, whats with the derogatory comments to a honest question. You sure deal a rough hand yourself for one complaining about being treated roughly. BTW: Another honest question. How did this sudden urge to stay on the F16 forum come about when you are not interested in the class? What was the turning point making you decide to hang out here? It sure has to be something major with all the heat you have brought down on yourself.

Wouter,

If what you sent me as a PM was a truce, I would hate to see your demand for surrender!

I am happy to keep playing.

How are you going with that answer on 3DL for me?

As Macca indicates in his most recent post; he declines on the truce offer made to him through private channels.

He (or the parties he represents) was offered an ending to the bickering and a serious and respectful discussion offline and through official channels of the issues he raised. This would also include an in depth analysis of his points and the assureance to adress them possibly through class rule changes if such a need is discovered.

Basically he was offered a seat at the table while not being a F16 boat owner or a F16 class member, and he would have had all the time and attention of F16 class members that he could possibly need to argue his case.

Basically the idea was to setup a restricted forum area where all F16 class members and class officials had access to but would be away from the general public as to avoid any grandstanding from by any party. A moderator would be mutually agreed upon and he or she would control the discussion according to standing scientific discourse. The discussion would have been held under the "one warning and then you're out" rule, which really does not favour Wouters side ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, it is my opinion that this path would have constituted his very best shot at having his points heard, considering the present state of the public forum and the general opinion.


I'm puzzled as why Macca would pass on that offer if he is really serious about the points he raises.

However, he has made his decision and refuses to accept this offer that he calls a "surrender"

I guess this ends everything.

Wouter

Wouter,

The PM you sent to me was rude to say the least. You really need to work on your communication skills if you are representing the ideas you have outlined in your post above.

I would be more than happy to have a forum whereby genuine ideas and concerns can be voiced and the future path of the class can be mapped. I did think (clearly mistaken) that this forum was such a place... But if the responses thus far to my and others views are a guide to any further discussion I see little point in taking the matter to a new forum.

No, it wasn't.


By the way, the offer can be renewed if you so desire.

Wouter

What's going on.... Macca has only expressed his opinion on what he thinks might be good for our Class!!!! I have listened to it and taken onboard what he is suggesting and I've also listened to opposing views. Why not draw a line in the sand and agree to disagree <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> and lets just carry on discussing the virtues of the Corinthian sport of sailing.

Andrew,
The build of 600-650 per year is a little different to what I was told by Greg Goodall.
While watching the racing at Zandvoort and waiting for his Viper to arrive he told me that F18 had been selling 500-600 per year but he doubts if 200 F18 had been sold globally in the last year.
This makes it look like the bottom has fallen out of the F18 market.
Now I don't know if this statement is right or not but I assumed Greg would know what he was talking about.

Good morning Phill
It's a full moon here and about 0 degrees outside. Just contemplating whether I need another drink before hitting the sack!!! Looks like a cold sail tomorrow 5-6 degrees C and 9-12mph wind. I'm not quite sure if I want the Race Officer and Rescue Boat crew to turn up!!
All the best
Mark

Hi Mark,
Sounds like that drink is a good idea.
Hope to have one or two or....... at Mumbles in August.

Sailing in 5 or 6 deg. Wow that is commitment.

Phill,

I know of one manufacturer that is making a boat a day and currently has a wait list for boats.

now if the other two are even making half that each plus the smaller builders you would be suprised at how many boats are being sold.

There is now serious talk of increasing the number of places available at the Worlds from the current level of 160 boats as the level of interest is higher this year then previously.

I think the bottom is still firmly in place.

What F16 should be doing is looking at why F18 is so popular and trying to utilise these lessons to make F16 a large international class like F18

Though of course correlation does not imply causation.

The F18 World council has stated that the annual build is in excess of 600 boats.

Fact: one builder is making in excess of 200 boats per year.

So going from Phill's statement that there wouldn't be 200 boats sold in the year and your quote that "just because one is doing so doesn't mean the others are doing it too" That must mean that the rest of the builders combined are producing Zero boats.... business must be tough for them hey?

This arguemnt is absurd. To have F16 dispute the size and strength of the benchmark catamamarn class in the world today smacks of jealosy.

I still wouldn't care if the F18 class was producing 100.000 new boats every year.

F16's are not F18's and that is actually by intent !

I also don't really understand Macca's anxiety. If anything F18 class has been selling the same numbers of boats annually for what, 10 years now ? Didn't make much impact on the F16 creation and growth over the last 6 years so why should we suddenly grow to fear it now ?

Come to think of it. It can just as easily be argued that the F18 is actually following in the footsteps of the F16's (as they should !). We had wingmasts before they did, we had fully battened selftacking jibs before they did, we had carbon rudders and boards before they did, we had cascading downhaul systems before they did, we had lightweight booms with mainsheet strap before they did and we have carbon masts before they do.

Actually, when looking at the situation from that perspective the F16 class has skipped an entire arms race that has been raging in the F18 class for a good 10 years.

When including the Taipan class in this comparison, the superiour technology used in the F16's predates the creation of the F18 class by another 10 years ! Viewed that way, the then newly created F18 class, with 180 kg weight, pin head sails, teardrop shaped masts, non-cascading downhaul, etc was nothing more then a giant step backwards.

And now he want us to follow that example, ehhh benchmark ? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


I say that the F16 class scores another point in comparison by doing it right the first time around !

Wouter

Wouter,

That post above perfectly sums up why F16 is doomed to an existence on the fringe of catamaran sailing.

If you were so much smarter than all the other classes to come before you why isn't F16 bigger than the few scattered pockets of activity that currently exist?

I am sorry to lump F16 in with Wouter here but unless someone else in the class assists him with his brain to keyboard linkage I have no alternative.

I personally see no long term security with the F18 class (primary issue being massive weight of the platform). I am not at all surprised that the “big guys” want a heavier F16 so they can build them using existing F18 parts. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Andrew Macpherson, professional sailor with commercial ties to catamaran building companies, you keep being a public nuisance here, so I'll repeat:


Give us facts, not your opinions which by the way goes against what Greg Goodall says. For all we know you might be quoting numbers from 2004 while Greg was talking about 2006. Oh, and we dont question the size and strength of the F18 class, but we are asking what the real numbers are, since you brought it up. Facts are good, you choosing to turn your own question around so it looks like the F16 class question the validity of the F18 class is as absurd as an non-member coming here telling the class it will have to forget about its class rules. It is you stirring the pot here creating these controversies, and you are very good at it.


How about it?


Your behaviour here reflects poorly on those who hire you to sail for them. You are not acting very professional. You have become a new Sam Evans for the F16 class.

Macca I'm not sure who you are, my guess is that you are quite young, probably in your mid 20's, probably pretty good at most things you do, probably quite vocal and think yourself as being fairly important being part of the " professional sailors " league of gentleman.

At your age I guess I was pretty much the same. Now some 30 years on I do have a few regrets, one thing principally cost me a job which would have then made me a millionaire. That one thing was opening my mouth a little too often with a little too much bravado and a little too much I'm an important guy.

Carry on as you are and I would bet you will be unemployable within a few years. Listen to a few of the older wiser sages who have been there and done it ( and there are more than few on this forum ), learn to listen and moderate yourself a little, you will in the long run be much more employable and will be much better liked.

Now I'm not trying to character assasinate you here but by you continuing to post with lots of ifs and maybes, never hard facts eg the precise number your mystery manufacturer makes F18's per year ( and yes one only has to look at that companies balance sheet to verify it ) firmly still puts you in the " Muppet " bracket.

Now Wouter, I've just had a bit of a pop at Macca for continuing this pretty pointless debate, You in my veiw are also a Muppet for not listening what others are saying, back off and limit your postings to statistics and engineering detail, the time you spend on this forum could so easily be spent much more wisely developing the F12 class or even better enjoying a drink and socialising with people.

Wayne, Your insight so far from the truth.

How about you let me handle my employability in the future... I reckon I have it under control.