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Re: Class business [Re: Mary] #132350
02/20/08 07:46 PM
02/20/08 07:46 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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Australia
Correct, only the F16 would need to be ISAF recognised to hold a worlds.

However for F16 to achieve such status there are a number of criteria that have to be met such as a minumum number of boats on each continent.

Also the bigest hurdle (change from current status) is the class rules would have to be ratified by ISAF and this is no easy task.


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Re: Class business [Re: Mary] #132351
02/20/08 07:49 PM
02/20/08 07:49 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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As a sailor, I would want my class to be ISAF sanctioned for two reasons.

Class rules are stable world wide and changes must go through ISAF through the approved "class rule change mechanism". This assures me that the crazy XXX's can't willy nilly change the boat weight and still call it " F16 class"

If they did .... ISAF is the organization that would tell US Sailing to tell the host yacht club... that hosting the F16 illegal class would cause them to loose their standing within the national sailing community. Sailors who participate in the event would also be barred from competing in other ISAF sanctioned events. ISAF hammers both clubs and sailors for rules violations. (See also drug testing rule, professional sailor rules etc etc)

Major championships (worlds, continentals) must be announced according to a specific calander, They must have a certain level of international participation (for a worlds)_.... the event must have a certain level of international judges and PRO with a certain level of skill. You could not for instance declare the upcoming gulfport regatta... the US Nationals just because it looked like it would be well attended. (those Californan's would have a legit beef that they were not given notice about the Nationals, etc etc.)

In short, ISAF standing gives your organization the stamp of approval that you meet a level of organization and excellence equivalent to the other International classes.

As a sailor... I would have a certain level of confidence in what to expect of an ISAF sanctioned class.

If memory serves... Wouter and the class founders had an extensive debate on the merits of getting ISAF recognition. They had gotten boats and races in the required regions etc etc. It cost a good bit of money to press on with the application and the founders did not pursue it.

Your opinion might vary as to the benefits of ISAF recognition.

In the end... it's the class.... (the organizational structure, rules, and demonstrated leadership) that must have credibilty for consumers to buy into your organization as the racing class of F16's. It is this organizaton that makes sure the builders comply with the class rules and that the equipment is within tolerance and the racing fair around the world. ISAF is one way of getting this credibility.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Class business [Re: fin.] #132352
02/20/08 07:53 PM
02/20/08 07:53 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
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Pete,
It is good that you went to the trouble of finding and reading the ISAF regulations.

I am sure that Wouter and the other F16 Class founders and the current governing council and all the builders are aware of the requirements for ISAF International or Recognized status. And I am sure that at some point it will come up for discussion under this heading of Class Business.

Re: Class business [Re: fin.] #132353
02/20/08 08:25 PM
02/20/08 08:25 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,479
Thailand
Buccaneer Offline
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Thailand
But the ISAF is the primary reason for lack of interest in the sport today. Just look at what they have done with the Olympics! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Indeed with friends like the ISAF controlling and manipulating the sport, who needs enemies? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


"House prices have risen by nearly 25 percent over the past two years. Although speculative activity has increased in some areas, at a national level these price increases largely reflect strong economic fundamentals." Ben Bernanke 2005
Re: Class business [Re: Buccaneer] #132354
02/20/08 08:55 PM
02/20/08 08:55 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Quote
But the ISAF is the primary reason for lack of interest in the sport today
.


Hmm..... that needs some explanation!


Quote
Just look at what they have done with the Olympics! Indeed with friends like the ISAF controlling and manipulating the sport, who needs enemies
?

This argument is too simplisitic.... Explain WHY we have a new discipline... "Women's Match Racing" We catamarans are a small niche of sailing... poorly organized, with no political savy AND with two bits of unsporting behavior at the international level in the very recent past. The vote was about a collection of countries voting their self interest.... The Olympic debacle is a red herring with respect to Why you might want to be ISAF approved.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Class business [Re: Mark Schneider] #132355
02/20/08 09:46 PM
02/20/08 09:46 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
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fin. Offline OP
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Quote

.... Explain WHY we have a new discipline... "Women's Match Racing" We catamarans are a small niche of sailing... poorly organized, with no political savy ....


The ISAF wants "gender equity" throughout the organization. That may be a worhtwhile goal, but it smacks of political correctness and quotas. It isn't something I wish to get involved with.

Re: Class business [Re: macca] #132356
02/21/08 02:34 AM
02/21/08 02:34 AM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 267
Switzerland
alutz Offline
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alutz  Offline
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Switzerland
Quote
Also the bigest hurdle (change from current status) is the class rules would have to be ratified by ISAF and this is no easy task.


Well we have just gone through this and ratified out class rules with a Member ISAF for our 18HT class. It is sure possible, it takes some time and now it is done.
The 18HT class is now a official 'Swiss Sailing B Class'.

IMO, ISAF ist the way to go.
It would be a great boost for the F16 class to get ISAF recognised status (at least) or international status. This would clearly show that the class has left its 'children's shoes' and is getting stable and serious.

Not that I think it is not stable and serious <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Greetings from Switzerland

Last edited by alutz; 02/21/08 02:35 AM.

Andi, Switzerland
Team OST
Re: Class business [Re: alutz] #132357
02/21/08 03:16 AM
02/21/08 03:16 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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macca  Offline
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Australia
Hey Andi,

does that mean you had the rules checked by the ISAF Member, but the class is still not recognised by ISAF?

I think its great to have ISAF check the class rules and offer suggestions as to how to improve them. It really opens your eyes as to why rules are worderd the way they are sometimes.

I think the scrutiny that ISAF put class rules under if the class wants to become recognised as an international class is very intense.


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Re: Class business [Re: Mark Schneider] #132358
02/21/08 03:18 AM
02/21/08 03:18 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
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Western Australia
Im not sure Im ready to revisit that ISAF discussion.. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Re: Class business [Re: macca] #132359
02/21/08 03:30 AM
02/21/08 03:30 AM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 267
Switzerland
alutz Offline
enthusiast
alutz  Offline
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Switzerland
Quote
does that mean you had the rules checked by the ISAF Member, but the class is still not recognised by ISAF?


Yes, the 18HT class, has 'only' the National Swiss Sailing B class status. We haven't worked on the ISAF recognised status yet.
Most of our boats are distributed mainly in and around Switzerland and Italy. But at our last 'Europeans' at the lake of Thun, there where 20 boats/competitors from germany, italy, france and switzerland and the competition was on. The Sach brothers (GER - F18 Worldchampions 2006) where beaten in the final race from Daniele Saragoni and crew (ITA).


Andi, Switzerland
Team OST
Re: Class business [Re: Stewart] #132360
02/21/08 03:58 AM
02/21/08 03:58 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,446
Central Coast NSW Australia
phill Offline

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Stewart,
I'm pretty much of the same mind.
We need to focus on setting up National Associations first.
Talking about ISAF before the national associations are set up is really putting the horse before the cart.

A bit like buying a set of tyres when you haven't bought a car.


I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

Re: Class business [Re: phill] #132361
02/21/08 06:44 AM
02/21/08 06:44 AM
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fin. Offline OP
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Quote
. . . putting the horse before the cart. . .

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> How do you guys do it down there?

Re: Class business [Re: fin.] #132362
02/21/08 07:13 AM
02/21/08 07:13 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,446
Central Coast NSW Australia
phill Offline

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Pete,
Just like anyone else.... although maybe it should have been "cart before the horse".


I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

Re: Class business [Re: fin.] #132363
04/27/08 08:00 AM
04/27/08 08:00 AM
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I just got back from the Alter Cup where I held the prestigious position of water boy! From this august position I was able to speak with and listen to a number of top level sailors. This is what I heard.

The F16 portsmouth number is too soft. Handicap racing with the current number is unfair.

Racing 1up/2up in the same regatta is not fair. That is to say you need to sail the entire regatta with the same number of crew. This opinion was expressed by F18 and F16 sailors.

I agree. We should committ to establishing a rule for number of crew and petition USSailing for a lower handicap number.

Comments?

Re: Class business [Re: fin.] #132364
04/27/08 08:15 AM
04/27/08 08:15 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

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My personal opinion:
You enter either as one up or two up, and sail the event that way. If you loose your crew you do the same as you do if you need/want to change crew/helm, you submit a written application to the jury. The jury can than either approve and make it know on the notice board, or they can deny the request. Fair enough for me.

Re: Class business [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #132365
04/27/08 08:30 AM
04/27/08 08:30 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
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Quote
My personal opinion:
You enter either as one up or two up, and sail the event that way. If you loose your crew you do the same as you do if you need/want to change crew/helm, you submit a written application to the jury. The jury can than either approve and make it know on the notice board, or they can deny the request. Fair enough for me.


Agreed.

You declare on entry if you are sailing 1 or 2 up;

If you break your crew, you need to find another one, and gain permission via the jury. You cannot add a crew (or remove) a crew during the event.


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: Class business [Re: scooby_simon] #132366
04/27/08 08:43 AM
04/27/08 08:43 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
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Firstly the portsmouth is what it is.. (currently) and outside the F16 boundaries of influence...

re the one-up or two -up... Well I would leave it in the hands of the race committee and terms of gift of the trophies.. However if someone gets injured then we should allow the boat to sail as a solo or with a crew.. (perhaps not gain the title)..

I just hope common sense prevails and we realise at the end of the day we are out there for fun and enjoying the sailing... Those competing for sheep stations are sailing F18 & Ts...

Last edited by Stewart; 04/27/08 08:49 AM.
Re: Class business [Re: Stewart] #132367
04/27/08 08:53 AM
04/27/08 08:53 AM
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We were successful in petitioning USS to do away with the uni rating, so we might be successful in petitioning a change in the overall rating.

"I just hope common sense prevails and we realise at the end of the day we are out there for fun and enjoying the sailing... Those competing for sheep stations are sailing F18 & Ts... "

I was surprised to hear, as a criticism of the class, that we are a "recreational" class, not a racing class.

Last edited by Tikipete; 04/27/08 09:04 AM.
Re: Class business [Re: fin.] #132368
04/27/08 09:03 AM
04/27/08 09:03 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,035
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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On the 1 up vs. 2 up thing, you run the risk of having a bunch of Uni sailors sitting on the beach when it's gusting over 20, they could not team up (like we did at Gulfport) on one day then sail Uni on the light air day that always follows the big blow...or they would have to stay teamed up on the light day, and you would have fewer boats racing, with perfectly good boats sitting in the parking lot...is that what you want?

As far as the P number, leave it alone, we are usually racing against each other, not in handicap anyway, but if we do race handicap, I want a slower Uni number, because racing Uni is slower rounding the downwind mark and snuffing the spin alone.

Oh, and who was complaining about the F16 number at the Alter Cup?

Last edited by Timbo; 04/27/08 09:05 AM.

Blade F16
#777
Re: Class business [Re: Timbo] #132369
04/27/08 09:20 AM
04/27/08 09:20 AM
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fin. Offline OP
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Quote
On the 1 up vs. 2 up thing, you run the risk of having a bunch of Uni sailors sitting on the beach when it's gusting over 20, they could not team up (like we did at Gulfport) on one day then sail Uni on the light air day that always follows the big blow...or they would have to stay teamed up on the light day, and you would have fewer boats racing, with perfectly good boats sitting in the parking lot...is that what you want?

As far as the P number, leave it alone, we are usually racing against each other, not in handicap anyway, but if we do race handicap, I want a slower Uni number, because racing Uni is slower rounding the downwind mark and snuffing the spin alone.

Oh, and who was complaining about the F16 number at the Alter Cup?


I'm not going to get into naming names. There was no complaining. The opinions were voiced civilly and based on first hand experience. Remember this was the Alter Cup, the guys doing the talking were well qualified to speak authoritatively. I wish you could have been there. Having you speak with them persoanlly, hear their reasoning, would have been very constructive, IMO.

Personally, I'd like to have the F18 sailors join this chat. We share the same sport and same resources. What one group does affects the other.

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