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Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: windswept] #133866
03/07/08 03:44 PM
03/07/08 03:44 PM
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Worthy Offline OP
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UKCRA (UK Catamaran Racing Association) are sending out an email on this to all people who signed the petition later today.

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: Worthy] #133867
03/07/08 05:03 PM
03/07/08 05:03 PM
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Worthy Offline OP
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Email is as follows:

Dear Petitioner

Thank you for signing the IOC petition asking that multihulls be included in the Sailing Regatta for the 2012 Olympics to be held in the UK. To date more than 5,700 petitioners including ISAF Sailors of the Year and Olympic medallists have signed what is probably the largest ever grass roots expression of concern at the management of our sport.

Goran Petersson, ISAF President,’s statement after that November decision was that the selection of Events demonstrated the modern nature and “the wide range and diversity of sailing”. Excluding a large part of the sport makes this patently untrue.

The multihull class was voted out at a meeting of the ISAF Council in November last year. As organisers of the petition, we have been waiting to see if its Executive Committee would respond by taking the initiative in reconsidering the selection of Olympic Events.

However, now that the minutes of ISAF’s February Executive Meeting have been published, not only does it appear that they have decided not to take the initiative, but it also seems that they may reject submissions to re-open the debate at the current mid year meeting, as not urgent, or at the annual meeting in November, since they see the matter as closed.

This is in spite of a right of appeal specifically and exclusively for this matter in Regulation 16.1.3 (a). The Executive received letters of concern about the selection of Events from several Member National Authorities, but decided these were not urgent, even before receiving formal submissions.

Furthermore in those Minutes it appears that the Executive will nevertheless be asking Council to treat as urgent a matter of retrospectively extending the deadline for Equipment submissions in the Women’s Match Racing Event, even though Regulation 16.1.2 states that no submission for Equipment shall be made after 15th March.

It seems thus the decision-making process is being applied unequally to the disadvantage of one sizeable part of the sailing community, while exceptions are made in favour of another.

We have prepared a detailed Report on the subject to help people understand better how such a widely unpopular decision was made in the first place. ISAF was offered an opportunity to discuss it before publication, but declined. You can download this Report at http://www.asnr29.dsl.pipex.com/ISAF_Events_Report.pdf

As the initiative has now passed from the Executive to Member National Authorities, and there are deadlines of March 13th for Events and March 15th for Equipment, our MNA, the Royal Yachting Association, has asked us to encourage supporters to lobby their own MNA urgently.

Please email the relevant people at your MNA and your ISAF Councillor with your views. There is a menu of sample submissions attached, so you can cut and paste whatever you find appropriate.

This is how changes are made at ISAF and it is how effective lobbying by supporters of Women’s Match Racing persuaded a record 11 countries to make submissions in their favour, including many of them strong multihull countries and many smaller countries, who are not directly represented on Council. If they can do it, so should we because our research shows that multihulls represent between 10 and 30% of all racing sailboats, depending on what measure is used.

Before the November ISAF meeting the multihull community was unaware what was at stake or what to do to about it. Now that we know, we need to gather whatever submissions we can, however short the notice.

Please contact the people you know in your MNA to make the multihull case in general and ask them specifically to make submissions, especially given the constitutional issues involved. Australia, Denmark, France and the UK have already done so in the last few days.

Please do it urgently.

Thank You

Nick Dewhirst
Chairman
United Kingdom Catamaran Racing Association

The attachment is at http://www.asnr29.dsl.pipex.com/ISAF_Sample_Submissions.rtf

Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: Worthy] #133868
03/07/08 05:54 PM
03/07/08 05:54 PM

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Still digesting the UKCRA report, but it seems very comprehensive. Interesting that they mention the racial implications (p9-10).

And catsailor.com gets a mention (p13)!

Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: ] #133869
03/07/08 05:58 PM
03/07/08 05:58 PM

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And this (p20): "Why does ISAF promote sexual apartheid?" !!!

Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: ] #133870
03/07/08 08:41 PM
03/07/08 08:41 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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Quote
And this (p20): "Why does ISAF promote sexual apartheid?" !!!


...but they are only following good old fashioned navy tradition. I suppose lashings are next on their list?!


Luiz
Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: John Williams] #133871
03/08/08 12:19 AM
03/08/08 12:19 AM
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rexdenton Offline
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Quote
The US Multihull Council is working on this for next week's meeting in Newport; however, additional letters from individual sailors to the Board of Directors don't hurt.

Jake, I repectfully disagree on lobbying the ISAF directors. The ISAF body ruefully ignores the MH community and I doubt very much they are going to change. To believe so plays into their agenda. As proof, I submit my history of correspondence with the ISAF, going back to October, 2007. The first part is my letter to the ISAF. I will then attempt to provide their response in a separate post.

Attached Files

Nacra F18 #856
Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: rexdenton] #133872
03/08/08 12:20 AM
03/08/08 12:20 AM
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Jerome Pels response:


Dear Mr. Denton



Thank you for your email to the ISAF President.



The selection of the 10 events for the 2012 Olympic Sailing Competition is going to be a difficult but interesting discussion within ISAF. ISAF is a democratic organisation and ISAF Committees, Member National Authorities and classes will have a chance to fully debate the issue at the ISAF Conference in November, before a vote is taken. All parties involved



Kind regards



Yours sincerely



Jerome Pels


Nacra F18 #856
Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: rexdenton] #133873
03/08/08 12:22 AM
03/08/08 12:22 AM
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My original letter. For some reason it did not post:

From: Rex Denton
Sent: 01 October 2007 22:23
To: ISAF Secretariat
Cc: [email]jake@teamseacats.com;[/email] olympics@ussailing.org
Subject: Exclusion of the Tornado by US Sailing and RYA



To:

Mr. Göran PETERSSON, President and Mr. Arve SUNDHEIM, Secretary ISAF:



I recently learned of the RYA and US Sailing proposals that exclude the catamaran from consideration in the 2012 Olympics. I believe this is an absurd proposal that does not reflect worldwide interest in the catamaran boat class. First, about me- I am nothing more than a novice sailing skipper, with no agenda, or professional affiliation to boat manufacturers, or any commercial boating interest that would bias my perspective. I am only a beach catamaran owner who has only begun racing competitively (with my son) on a local level. (Frankly, we are not very good, but we are learning and having great fun doing so.)



Despite my novice status in racing events, I have watched the Tornado class (Olympic and otherwise), events and other catamaran events for many years, with great enthusiasm. The Tornado has been a cornerstone of Olympic sailing events for a very long time. The catamaran remains as one of the most exciting classes of World event sailing. With the F18 ‘box category’ class ascending in popularity worldwide, there is a thriving International community of sailors dedicated to perpetuating the catamaran boat class and the sport. Arguably, for us, from the standpoint of spectacle, catamarans and skiffs remain the more interesting boats to watch in Olympic yachting events, with races of both shorter duration and involving a greater mix of athleticism and sailing know-how than in most other classes of boating. In spite of the advantages, the RYA and US Sailing have chosen to act unilaterally, with no additional input, to abandon International catamaran fleets in favor of (with no international catamaran fleet input), two separate and distinct dinghy events, thereby excluding the catamaran from their recommendation for the 2012 Olympics.



While US Sailing explains that they do not endorse any event and are acting in the interest of seeing ‘the US win medals’ such an agenda is not in the interest of the wider sailing community, either in the US or abroad. Rather, this position should be discounted as ‘agenda oriented’ and in place to stack stronger US medal events in the Olympics. US Sailing continues that ... [‘our submission was silent on what we would like the other two events to be]... and [‘our submission did not call for the elimination of any current Olympic event]. Irrefutably, despite their explanation, the US sailing position ignores the catamaran class, thereby having potentially the same consequence as specifically not recommending catamarans for the 2012 Olympics. (See attachment 20070322_USSAILINGResponse_2012.) It is, therefore, disingenuous of the RYA and US Sailing to advance an agenda that only supports specific classes, for unknown reasons, with little input from the catamaran class, (and or windsurfing communities, for that matter).



The basis of this position is unclear but perhaps the RYA and US Sailing either 1) have the more familiarity with dinghies, or, 2) lean toward classes that are so popular that they cannot, or will not bother to advocate other classes, or 3) have favorites based on performance and popularity within regional clubs that have many dinghy owners as members. In any case, such skewed perspectives occur at the expense of the catamaran class, resulting in a formal lobby that, in spite of their claim, neither represents nor furthers the growing popularity of the sailing classes such as catamarans or wind boards. As one who participates in catamaran events I am left wondering how objective such these organizations can remain as acting advocates for the catamaran class (and for International sailing, in general).



Such awkward representation reflects an unreasonable and skewed extension of influence to the level of the ISAF and IOC. Limited and agenda driven positions, in my opinion, should not carry sway or represent the true spirit of the Olympics, where diversity and athleticism on the world stage should facilitate and advance the popularity of sport.



As such, I urge the IOC to discount the advice of both the RYA and US sailing's agenda for exclusion of the multi-hull class and request that the submission put forth by the RYA and US Sailing be withdrawn before ISAF convenes in November. Their positions should be replaced by alternative submissions supporting youth training with catamarans (and wind boards, for that matter) in future Olympics (2012 and beyond). I recommend the IOC to appropriately discount US Sailing’s position on the appropriate classes of boat as parochial, uninformed and exclusive.



It is my hope that the ISAF and IOC engage in a wider, more objective forum of international dialogue, including those within the catamaran and other sailing classes (outside US Sailing and RYA) before the formal IOC positions on the 2012 boat class decisions coalesce. Hopefully, US catamaran sailors can also work with US Sailing and the RYA to portray and promote the vibrant, popular and competitive qualities we see in regional catamaran sailing events.



Respectfully,



R. Rex Denton, Ph. D.

129 Hunter’s Trail

Madison , CT

Catamaran owner, (and pretty lousy cat racing skipper)

rexdenton@snet.net


Nacra F18 #856
Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: rexdenton] #133874
03/08/08 12:27 AM
03/08/08 12:27 AM
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The following is my testy reply to ISAF after the railroad job:

Gentleman:

Your boat selection and process for inclusion in the 2012 Olympics was disappointing to myself and all multihull sailors with whom I am affiliated. As much as I would like to think that your decision was fair and representative, it is difficult to avoid placing blame upon the ISAF for either gross incompetancy or using a terribly flawed process for arrive at such important decisions.

US Sailing appears to have made or participated in a tactical vote, opting for a keelboat to be selected over a multihull because the Star fleet is best represented in the US fleets. Unfortunately for catamaran sailors, who have less affiliation with such boat clubs (we compete on beaches, generally), our apparant lack of representation by ISAF (palpable at Alter Cup events) keeps our interests sequestesed from the process of boat selection. US Sailing, feeling pressure to rely on winning medals to ensure ongoing funding seems to have chosen the Star rather than the Tornado even after the US won a silver in the Tornado and no medals for the Star in Athens. Your unconscounable decision is a disservice to the sport of sailing, and are an example of how the evolution of the sport is weighted in favor of tradition and wealthy yacht club members, and against innovation and sportsmanship. The IOC should appraise whether or not your decision was fair, judicious and in the best interest of the future of yachting.

The ISAF should rather looking to the future of the sport (not the past) when making decisions for Olympic classes, and looking to include the world of sportsmen rather than "clubby interests" avoid when ISAF Council sits down to vote.


Nacra F18 #856
Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: rexdenton] #133875
03/08/08 12:29 AM
03/08/08 12:29 AM
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The last reply was made 27-NOV-2007.


Nacra F18 #856
Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: rexdenton] #133876
03/08/08 04:26 AM
03/08/08 04:26 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 612
Cape Town, South Africa
Steve_Kwiksilver Offline
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I have forwarded the letter from the UKCRA to my MNA, since they originally voted to keep the multihull, I hope they will take action and support the motion to re-instate the multihull.
Even in keelboat sailor`s minds in SA, this has not been a good thing for sailing in general.

Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: Steve_Kwiksilver] #133877
03/08/08 05:12 AM
03/08/08 05:12 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
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ISAF Council made a poor decision, but now it is the ISAF Executive committe who refuses to play the ball. I am getting in contact with my MNA, who have made their pro-multi position known with ISAF.

Satire is beginning to emerge.. Here is one opinion on the ISAF Execute committee:
[Linked Image]

Attached Files
136992-ISAFbandits.jpg (17 downloads)
Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #133878
03/11/08 10:33 AM
03/11/08 10:33 AM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 613
New Hampshire, USA
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I think that this is a valid point that Paul Henderson makes.

Letters To The Editor editor@scuttlebutteurope.com
Letters are limited to 350 words. No personal attacks are permitted. We do require your name but your email address will not be published without your permission.

* From Paul Henderson: ISAF and Tornado: Let me first state my bias: I like Cats as they are a unique disciplne and they must be sailed as Kinetics are of minimal advantage.

Having said that I fully understand the militancy of the Tornado class but their attacks on the ISAF Executive and especially the President Goran Petersson are unwarranted.

The voting held in November 2007 by the 39 Council members was open and transparent with how each delegated voted published and they are the ones who are responsible.

The ISAF President must support positively the results no matter what his personal position maybe and he has. With regard to reopening the issue at the mid-year meeting, this is not the forum so to do as it is not an urgent decision at this time and the mid-Year meeting is mainly for financial subjects and not major policy discussions. The AGM in November is the proper and Constitutional time to address the classes for 2012. The Executive is right.

Many times the November meeting has reversed decisions previously made after due diligence especially listening to the sailing community and that is when the real indepth decisions will be made. November 2008 is when the final and binding decision on the 2012 events will be held.

The Tornado has a very good case to remain Olympic and they should make their case in a positive manner forgetting the personal attacks.

The solution should be to positively lobby IOC President Rogge (Belgium) and his IOC sailing colleagues who are still IOC Members like Peter Tallberg (Finland), Ng Ser Miang (Singapore), Fernando Lima Bello (Portugal), Prince Albert (Monaco), Barbara Kendall (New Zealand) to delay the deletion of the 11th Event until 2016 as the reason for doing so is now not relevant with the deletion of Basball and Softball. This coupled with the fact that the 2012 Games will be in London, the home of the now #1 sailing nation, makes this request sensible. It is a positive solution to a very disruptive problem. I personally support the other RYA positions also.


Tom Siders
A-Cat USA-79
Tornado US775
Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: windswept] #133879
03/13/08 07:12 AM
03/13/08 07:12 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
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West coast of Norway
The danes are taking on the ISAF Exec committee:

http://www.sejlsport.dk/graphics/ds/dsor...012-03-2008.pdf
http://www.sejlsport.dk/graphics/ds/dsor...ents%202012.pdf
http://www.sejlsport.dk/graphics/ds/dsor...ents%202012.pdf


Despite what many are claiming now, it is apparently not just a small group of multihull sailors who think the black day in Estoril need to be corrected.

Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #133880
03/13/08 07:52 AM
03/13/08 07:52 AM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 613
New Hampshire, USA
windswept Offline
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Full story from Scuttlebut Europe. I am glad to see some prominent individuals and countries speaking out about the voting proceedure. This may finally cause Paul Henderson to take a break from his rhetoric and holier than though attitudes about "there was no wrong doing" with the voting proceedures.
Aussies and Danes Send Letters...
* Yachting Australia have released the submission sent to the International sailing Federation (ISAF) supporting the re-opening of the November 2007 decision on the Events chosen for the 2012 Olympic Games.

The announcement by Yachting Australia follows a similar course to that adopted by the Royal Yachting Association.

There is now the situation were the two most successful nations at the 2007 Olympics in Qingdao are now urging ISAF to reconsider the Event selection for the 2012 Olympic Regatta. Between them Australia and Great Britain won Gold medals in seven of the 11 events contested in Qingdao in the Olympic format regatta (only one entry per nation permitted).

To date, ISAF has been batting away criticism of its handling of the Events affair, however with the closing date of 15 March looming for submissions. other major yachting nations are believed to be joining the fray for a re-opening either at the May Mid-Year Meeting or the November Annual meeting. -- Richard Gladwell in Sail-world.com, www.sail-world.com/indexs.cfm?nid=42564

Yachting Australia' proposal:

That the decision recorded at item 13(d), Selection of Events for the 2012 Olympic Sailing Competition, of the Minutes of the ISAF Council Meeting held on 8/9 November 2008 in Estoril, Portugal, based on a motion from the floor by Charley Cook (USA), be reconsidered by a meeting of the ISAF Council at the earliest available opportunity.

If, in reconsidering this motion, the ISAF Council decides that a revote is appropriate, there should be either a run off vote between:
a) Multihull (Open) and the Keelboat (Men)
b) Two Person Dinghy High Performance (Women) and Keelboat Match (Women) or the list of Events for the 2012 Olympic Regatta, as decided in Estoril in November 2007, should be set aside and a new vote taken, using the voting process as recommended by the Events Committee without the change that resulted from the motion made by Charley Cook.

The reasons given (25 of them!) can be read in full at www.sail-world.com/indexs.cfm?nid=42564

* The Danish Sailing Association has made two submissions:

That the decision on selection of Women's Events for the 2012 Olympic Regatta be reconsidered in accordance with ISAF regulation 16.1.1(b), and that a run-off vote be held between "2 person dinghy (high performance)" and "Keelboat (match Racing)" at the earliest available opportunity.

and

That the decision on the selecction of Men / Open Events for the 2012 Olympic Regatta be reconsidered in accordance with 16.1.1(b), and that a run-off vote be held between "Keelboat" and "Multi-hull" at the earliest available opportunity.

Submissions in full:
scuttlebutteurope.com/pdf/DEN1.pdf
scuttlebutteurope.com/pdf/DEN2.pdf

The Danes also focus on the process of the voting in their letter to the ISAF:

In November 2007 the voting procedure was changed in the last minute to a "4 out of 6" process. There was no suggestion or reasoning with regard to the proposal from Charley Cook, or from any other Council member, that the motion would change the fundamental principles concerning the voting procedure. Until that moment most of the Council Members was of the understanding that Council should use the same procedure as for the Events Committee, where key fundamental principle (sic) was that no Event should be eliminated until it had failed to receive 50% of the valid vote cast in the first "slate: ballot of any subsequent run-off ballot.

Their complete letter at scuttlebutteurope.com/pdf/DENletter.pdf


Tom Siders
A-Cat USA-79
Tornado US775
Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: windswept] #133881
03/13/08 08:04 AM
03/13/08 08:04 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
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Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe

A decision made can still be very wrong even if the correct procedures have been followed.

Midnight Las Vegas weddings while drunk, everyone !

Procedures aren't unfalliable either !

Basic human truth; someone should explain Henderson that.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 03/13/08 08:06 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: Wouter] #133882
03/13/08 11:34 AM
03/13/08 11:34 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 124
offshore
peter_nelson Offline
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I too am deeply concerned about the Olympic issue and am passionate about multihull sailing. But like Mary, I don't write letters to my folks via snailmail, much less to the IOC.

So I went to US SAILING Board of Directors and found all of the directors with their email contacts. I then crafted the following letter...

Dear Mr. Stump --

I am writing to request reconsideration of US SAILING's vote to exclude a multihull class from the 2012 Olympic games. As a long-standing member of US SAILING, and someone who sails/races both keelboats and multihulls, I respectfully ask that you and your/our organization do everything possible to get ISAF and the IOC to reconsider their decision and to reopen the discussion of equipment/classes to be used at the 2012 Olympics so as to include multihull sailing.

Multihull sailing represents a significant percentage of sailors. To exclude multis from the Olympics is to disenfranchise a significant percentage of sailors. In addition, multihull racing is one of the most exciting classes. The speed these boats go provides incredible excitement for the viewing public.

At a time when sailing is being viewed as too boring for TV coverage, it is imperative that we introduce new concepts to "liven up the action". The inclusion of a Gold Medal round on the last day with double points is an excellent start. Keeping the fast-paced multihulls is another important element.

I recognize there are large costs associated with supporting sailing at the Olympic games, and that difficult decisions need to be made. I simply ask you to work to save multihulls because I believe they will ultimately save sailing in the Olympics.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Of course, I substituted each "Dear ---" to personalize it. I copied and pasted the text of the letter into the 15 emails. I had to type a subject line in each message -- I used "Multihulls in the Olympics". I then sent all 15 messages. Total time spent was about 10 min. Now THAT I can do!

How about YOU????

My letter isn't the best. But if you don't want to write your own, then borrow mine. The link to the email addresses is right in this message. You have everything you need to take some action NOW! So quit your whining and start sending emails!!!


Time Warp Racing
Hobie 14, 16, & 17, Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 45.2
Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: peter_nelson] #133883
03/13/08 11:52 AM
03/13/08 11:52 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Long Beach, California
Thanks Peter - and to everyone else who is still focused on this effort.

We had a good discussion on the current state of affairs on the MHC call yesterday. Of particular note, the following countries and classes have made submissions to ISAF on this issue, either on equipment or on re-opening the vote;

Great Britain - 2012 Host Country
New Zealand
Australia
Denmark
France
Russia
The IHCA
NACRA
AHPC (Capricorn)
International F18 Class

There will be a motion to the US SAILING House of Delegates on Saturday from the MHC on this issue as well.

Most interestingly to all - we have had very productive discussions with the Olympic Sailing Committee and members of the Board of Directors (including President Capron) over the last couple of weeks, which intensified in the last few days. I think we're in a whole new place as a result. You're justified if you view this with skepticism, but I'm literally holding my breath as the Board meets tonight and the House meets on Saturday. The next few days will be critical from a US perspective, but the small avalanche of submissions to ISAF this last week cannot been seen as anything other than a very positive thing for multihull sailing worldwide.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: John Williams] #133884
03/13/08 12:44 PM
03/13/08 12:44 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
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Stewart  Offline
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Western Australia
interesting list.
Especially who isn't on that list..
thanks anyway

Re: Update on boats for 2012 Olympics [Re: peter_nelson] #133885
03/13/08 03:22 PM
03/13/08 03:22 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 124
offshore
peter_nelson Offline
member
peter_nelson  Offline
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offshore
Update on an email to US SAILING Board of Directors...

4 hours after sending the 15 directors my email, I received 2 responses (Allsopp & Becker) thanking me for the "well written note" (Becker) and promising to look into it further (Allsopp).

Chip John's email address is no longer good and the letter should be sent instead to info@teamvanguard.com


Time Warp Racing
Hobie 14, 16, & 17, Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 45.2
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