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Re: Do you know for sure your boat won't sink? [Re: MaryAWells] #13448
04/15/03 02:23 PM
04/15/03 02:23 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
I just talked to W.F. Oliver, and he said the Bimare Jav 2's are required by law in Europe (as Wouter said) to have a certain amount of positive flotation. In this case, though, because of the size and location of the hole in the boat that was T-boned at the Alter Cup, the flotation was dislodged from where it was secured to the inside of the hull and it escaped through the hole.

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Do you know for sure your boat won't sink? [Re: Mary] #13449
04/15/03 02:40 PM
04/15/03 02:40 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 397
Burlington, Vermont USA
K
Kevin Rose Offline
enthusiast
Kevin Rose  Offline
enthusiast
K
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 397
Burlington, Vermont USA
Quote
I just talked to W.F. Oliver, and he said the Bimare Jav 2's are required by law in Europe (as Wouter said) to have a certain amount of positive flotation. . .


Mary,

Did W.F. mention what kind of flotation material is used? How is it secured?


Kevin Rose N6.0na #215 Lake Champlain (New England's "west coast") Burlington, Vermont
Re: Do you know for sure your boat won't sink? [Re: Kevin Rose] #13450
04/15/03 03:22 PM
04/15/03 03:22 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Well, Kevin, he told me, but I was not in a position to be paying close attention or taking notes at the time -- and he called on a completely different subject. What interested me is that, as I had supposed, when you add flotation to your hull (not built into the construction), you may have a hard time keeping it inside your hull if you get a big hole. Or, as someone else said in this thread, the flotation, when unattached, can go to one end of the hull or the other and cause a problem of a different sort.

He did say that the Bimare uses foam-core construction and has foam bulkheads but that those alone are not enough to meet the European standards, so additional flotation is put inside the hulls and secured. In this case the foam, of whatever nature, was dislodged and got out through the hole.

I would really rather not be the middle man here, and I think it would be best if W.F. or a factory representative would explain what kind of flotation is installed and how.

And I don't think it is really productive to pick on one specific boat without getting information from as many manufacturers as possible about what they do to make sure their boats won't sink. The Jav 2 just happens to be the one that got captured on film.

Is this really a major problem? I don't think so. How often do you hear of a beach-cat sinking right to the bottom? No reason to blow it out of proportion. But, still, it would be nice to know for sure that your boat will not sink.

I started this thread in the first place primarily because I thought the issue should be addressed in regard to boats that are used in the Worrell 1000.

Re: Do you know for sure your boat won't sink? [Re: Mary] #13451
04/15/03 03:51 PM
04/15/03 03:51 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 397
Burlington, Vermont USA
K
Kevin Rose Offline
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Kevin Rose  Offline
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Posts: 397
Burlington, Vermont USA
Quote
. . . I don't think it is really productive to pick on one specific boat without getting information from as many manufacturers as possible about what they do to make sure their boats won't sink. The Jav 2 just happens to be the one that got captured on film.


Mary,
I agree. Whenever a new design hits the market, there seems to be a mixed response, ranging from, "Wow that boat's cool", to "Ya, but will that thing hold up to the rigors of hard use like mine". Unfortunately, a single incident like the one at the Alter Cup can sometimes capture the lion's share of attention (like Jensen Beach a couple years back).

I was curious about the Jav's flotation because I was wondering if it were anything like what's been suggested in various posts in this thread.

As you said, the likelihood of a cat having both hulls compromised is probably slim. One hull full of air certainly would stay at the surface, however flotation that would keep the holed hull at the surface, too, might make the towing/salvage efforts easier.


Kevin Rose N6.0na #215 Lake Champlain (New England's "west coast") Burlington, Vermont
Re: Do you know for sure your boat won't sink? [Re: Kevin Rose] #13452
04/16/03 06:23 PM
04/16/03 06:23 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 67
Key Largo, Fl
chipshort Offline
journeyman
chipshort  Offline
journeyman
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 67
Key Largo, Fl
This link has some shots of the RC boats and the salvage operation. David Billing from the Clearwater Yacht Club did some outstange powerboat driving.

Funny thing, we just had some more chunks of the hull wash up on the beach yesterday. 5 days after the wreck!

The Salvage operation

Re: Do you know for sure your boat won't sink? [Re: MaryAWells] #13453
04/16/03 07:42 PM
04/16/03 07:42 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 47
Maryland, USA
HoldenBeachin Offline
newbie
HoldenBeachin  Offline
newbie
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 47
Maryland, USA
Hi Mary...

Just a thought, another possibility for cheap floatation assistance might be had from empty plastic soda or water bottles. They are pretty light when empty, of course, this is assuming your boat has access ports large enough to fit them through. My H16 has the styrofoam blocks between the pylons, but with my 6' access ports, I could add a load of empty 2 litre soda bottles to the hull if I wanted the extra displacement. Downside--I guess they would float away if the hull was severely breached.

Mark Owens
1976 H16 sail # 19857

Re: Do you know for sure your boat won't sink? [Re: Kevin Rose] #13454
04/20/03 10:03 AM
04/20/03 10:03 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 123
Santa Fe, New Mexico
Greg Offline
member
Greg  Offline
member
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 123
Santa Fe, New Mexico
Kevin,
I considered using my canoe floatation bags, but the glass doesn't look too friendly inside my H16. I am afraid that upon inflation it be punctured by the irregularities of the glass inside the hull. What do you think?
Greg,
H16, H14

Re: Do you know for sure your boat won't sink? [Re: Greg] #13455
04/20/03 10:21 AM
04/20/03 10:21 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 397
Burlington, Vermont USA
K
Kevin Rose Offline
enthusiast
Kevin Rose  Offline
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K
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Quote
Kevin,
I considered using my canoe floatation bags, but the glass doesn't look too friendly inside my H16. I am afraid that upon inflation it be punctured by the irregularities of the glass inside the hull. What do you think?
Greg,
H16, H14


That can be a problem. A solution (aside from sanding down the rough bits) would be to only partially inflate the bag so that it isn't held with air pressure against the inside of the hull.


Kevin Rose N6.0na #215 Lake Champlain (New England's "west coast") Burlington, Vermont
Re: Do you know for sure your boat won't sink? [Re: Greg] #13456
04/20/03 06:30 PM
04/20/03 06:30 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,446
Central Coast NSW Australia
phill Offline
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phill  Offline
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Posts: 1,446
Central Coast NSW Australia
Greg
Another option that could be less expensive would be the bladders from casks of wine. They weigh 50 grams each and displace 4 litres or 4kg of water and they are quite durable.
The hard part is finding cask wine that is to your liking.

Regards,
Phill


I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

Re: Do you know for sure your boat won't sink? [Re: phill] #13457
04/20/03 07:16 PM
04/20/03 07:16 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 397
Burlington, Vermont USA
K
Kevin Rose Offline
enthusiast
Kevin Rose  Offline
enthusiast
K
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 397
Burlington, Vermont USA
Quote
Greg
Another option that could be less expensive would be the bladders from casks of wine. They weigh 50 grams each and displace 4 litres or 4kg of water and they are quite durable.
The hard part is finding cask wine that is to your liking.

Regards,
Phill


Only problem there is you'd have to drink an awful lot of wine to come up with the flotation available in a couple of canoe/kayak float bags


Kevin Rose N6.0na #215 Lake Champlain (New England's "west coast") Burlington, Vermont
And for you that is a problem ? [Re: Kevin Rose] #13458
04/21/03 02:23 AM
04/21/03 02:23 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe

It's a joke !

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Do you know for sure your boat won't sink? [Re: Kevin Rose] #13459
04/27/03 09:36 AM
04/27/03 09:36 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 123
Santa Fe, New Mexico
Greg Offline
member
Greg  Offline
member
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 123
Santa Fe, New Mexico
Kevin,
Quote
That can be a problem. A solution (aside from sanding down the rough bits) would be to only partially inflate the bag so that it isn't held with air pressure against the inside of the hull.

I am afraid that even with partially inflated floatation that if a leak occurs, once the hull is full of water pressure will be exerted on the bag.
Greg (pessimist)
H14,H16

Fill the hulls with empty plastic bottles [Re: MaryAWells] #13460
04/28/03 10:37 AM
04/28/03 10:37 AM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,305
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
veteran
Luiz  Offline
veteran
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,305
Asuncion, Paraguay
Mary,

This idea is so simple that chances are that someone already wrote about it here (and elsewhere) - please forgive me if this is the case.

It is also not original, not fancy and not the lightest setup - but it works.

For additional safety, tie the bottles neck to neck beforehands. Tying will hold them together, so they aren't lost if the hull is cut in half. And, should it happen, the string of bottles makes for a good flotation aid.

I also learned the following in the discussion site br.groups.yahoo.com/group/altomar/messages (not in English):

The empty bottles are tough because they were designed to take relatively high internal pressures. Participants reported on pets being used as fenders (without cover) and mooring buoys as well.

When higher internal pressure is desired, they put them into the freezer before closing the lid. The cold air then expands, increasing the pressure. Depending on where you are, just leave them outside at night and close the lid in the morning.

Take care!


Luiz
Re: Fill the hulls with empty plastic bottles [Re: Luiz] #13461
04/28/03 11:13 AM
04/28/03 11:13 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Keith Offline
veteran
Keith  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Quote
Participants reported on pets being used as fenders (without cover) and mooring buoys as well.


Should I use my Golden Retriever or one of my cats?

I know, I know, I just couldn't resist...

Re: Fill the hulls with empty plastic bottles [Re: Keith] #13462
04/28/03 11:29 AM
04/28/03 11:29 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
BANNED
MauganN20 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
MauganN20  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
BANNED
the only thing my dogs do on my boat is eat jellyfish.

Hey Keith ! [Re: Keith] #13463
04/28/03 12:03 PM
04/28/03 12:03 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe


Its blond and smart, what is it ?


Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Fill the hulls with empty plastic bottles [Re: Keith] #13464
04/28/03 03:54 PM
04/28/03 03:54 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,305
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
veteran
Luiz  Offline
veteran
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,305
Asuncion, Paraguay
Quote
Should I use my Golden Retriever or one of my cats?
I know, I know, I just couldn't resist...


Ecological safe sailing aid:

[color:"red"]"Recycle - freeze your pet - make your boat safer" [/color]

answering your question: I guess cats suit cats better.
For monos, use monkeys.


Luiz
Raising a sunken cat [Re: Luiz] #13465
05/09/03 02:55 PM
05/09/03 02:55 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2
SW Florida
Lane Offline
stranger
Lane  Offline
stranger
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2
SW Florida
Once sunk.. If it sinks during the test.. consider making a custom portal attachment and use a CO2 fire extinguisher to force the water back out of the hull. It won't take much to get it back to the surface.


Early model Hobie 18
Re: Raising a sunken cat [Re: Lane] #13466
05/09/03 04:53 PM
05/09/03 04:53 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 264
Neb
flounder Offline
enthusiast
flounder  Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 264
Neb
If my boat is damaged that bad... I say let it sink. Screw it and buy another one.

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