Announcements
New Discussions
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
Re: Where to get a custom carbon mast? [Re: wildtsail] #137612
03/25/08 07:17 AM
03/25/08 07:17 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 146
Crofton, MD
Todd Berget Offline
member
Todd Berget  Offline
member

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 146
Crofton, MD
The masts are made by Southern Spars (who acquired Omohundro in 2001). They originally were made at Omohundros facility that I think was in California or nevada (they also made Farr 40 masts). Southern then sent the tooling to New Zealand and just last year sent it to South Africa. With each move, the cost has gone up.

I had written a letter to the Class Assoc. (I think it went to Mark Biggers) expressing my concern and recommending Forte as a more economical alternative. I think Mark sent it on to Performance. I definitely agree that the cost of the new boat needs to come down in order for the class to survive, but I also don't want to see the class splintered by going to a stick that does not perform. I was however very surprised at the price of a new F17 with the aluminum mast. If the 20 saw a similar reduction, it certainly couldn't hurt the class.

Perhaps all of those interested should express our opinions to Performance. I know it is not a member run class, but it can't hurt that the manufacturer knows where the class stands.

T


Todd Nacra 20 www.wrcra.org
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Where to get a custom carbon mast? [Re: Todd Berget] #137613
03/25/08 07:58 AM
03/25/08 07:58 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Timbo  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
If you could buy a "better" aerodynamic shaped alum. wing type mast, would the better aerodynamics on the leading edge of the sail offset the heavier weight?

Talk amongst yourselves.... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Blade F16
#777
Re: Where to get a custom carbon mast? [Re: Frozen] #137614
03/25/08 08:29 AM
03/25/08 08:29 AM

A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A



Quote
And a ginpole makes it even easier.


I used to use one on my TheMightyHobie18.( An E-Z mast stepper ). Yes they do make stepping easier but they take about 15 minutes or more to get on your boat properly and my rigging time is already over an hour. I have so many lines, wires and "stuff" goin on at the front of my cat with my spin, anchor lines, bridal etc… getting in there to fiddle with the mounting of the ginpole is a pain and a ½.

Another problem with that is my trailer is set up to put my boat on sterns facing my car. This allows me to have the mast at an angle for easier stepping and i would have to move the "trailer beams" around since the rear ones have cradles and not rollers.

I have found with a “helper” line tied to my halyard, If I find someone on the beach to give me a little help the line… it is much more manageable. I can handle it without to much a risk of a hernia.

I was just curious about the carbon mast. I can’t see spending 2x on the mast, compared to what I paid for the entire catamaran… but I can always dream.

Re: Where to get a custom carbon mast? [Re: Todd Berget] #137615
03/25/08 08:46 AM
03/25/08 08:46 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Quote
The masts are made by Southern Spars (who acquired Omohundro in 2001). They originally were made at Omohundros facility that I think was in California or nevada (they also made Farr 40 masts). Southern then sent the tooling to New Zealand and just last year sent it to South Africa. With each move, the cost has gone up.

I had written a letter to the Class Assoc. (I think it went to Mark Biggers) expressing my concern and recommending Forte as a more economical alternative. I think Mark sent it on to Performance. I definitely agree that the cost of the new boat needs to come down in order for the class to survive, but I also don't want to see the class splintered by going to a stick that does not perform. I was however very surprised at the price of a new F17 with the aluminum mast. If the 20 saw a similar reduction, it certainly couldn't hurt the class.

Perhaps all of those interested should express our opinions to Performance. I know it is not a member run class, but it can't hurt that the manufacturer knows where the class stands.

T


I'm not convinced there would be a lessening in the performance of the boat - just because it's carbon doesn't make it fast and I'm certain that given enough time and development, an aluminum stick could be made as fast or faster than the carbon stick. However, there will be some performance difference and that is not good for the class - but it's better than death.

If you went to a different carbon mast supplier, I think you are still going to see some differences as the production methods, tooling, and/or materials will experience some differences. Either way, you're going to have to deal with some sort of change.


Jake Kohl
Re: Where to get a custom carbon mast? [Re: Jake] #137616
03/25/08 09:09 AM
03/25/08 09:09 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 146
Crofton, MD
Todd Berget Offline
member
Todd Berget  Offline
member

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 146
Crofton, MD
I agree, there will definitely be some degree of change. Hall would probably be able to produce the closest thing to the existing stick, but also would probably be the most expensive (still cheaper imho). I would guess that forte could do a blank for quite a bit less, but i'm sure it would have different bend characteristics and weight (since they use an Aluminum T mast as the mandrel), but I'm guessing it would still be pretty close. I've never seen the newer F18 extrusions so have no idea on the weight of those, but you can probably get really close to the carbon stick in terms of weight (my old alum. T mast was pretty close to the current I20 carbon stick in terms of weight).

If they can get the price of a new boat down to the $13K range I think we would all welcome an alum. stick. If it would still be in the $16-17 range probably not so much. It seems when things get over $15K it gets alot harder to justify. Has anyone heard anything from the factory on this?


Todd Nacra 20 www.wrcra.org
Re: Where to get a custom carbon mast? [Re: Todd Berget] #137617
03/25/08 09:27 AM
03/25/08 09:27 AM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 756
Newport, RI
wildtsail Offline
old hand
wildtsail  Offline
old hand

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 756
Newport, RI
I've been casually quoted, by 2 dealers, a price of $23K for a new 20...
I'm decrease to 16-17 would be amazing! That's the price of a new Infusion!
I think the day of seeing these boats under $15K is long gone.

Re: Where to get a custom carbon mast? [Re: wildtsail] #137618
03/25/08 09:41 AM
03/25/08 09:41 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 146
Crofton, MD
Todd Berget Offline
member
Todd Berget  Offline
member

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 146
Crofton, MD
$23K???? Ouch.

Can't sell boats at that price. $16-17 I guess is the best we can hope for.


Todd Nacra 20 www.wrcra.org
Re: Where to get a custom carbon mast? [Re: Todd Berget] #137619
03/25/08 09:57 AM
03/25/08 09:57 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,490
On the Water
P.M. Offline
Pooh-Bah
P.M.  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,490
On the Water
Capt. Kirk quoted the new price at $19,600 without trailer two weeks ago at Mid Winters.


Philip
USA #1006
Re: Where to get a custom carbon mast? [Re: basket.case] #137620
03/25/08 09:58 AM
03/25/08 09:58 AM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 736
Westport, Ma. U.S.A.
Brian_Mc Offline
old hand
Brian_Mc  Offline
old hand

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 736
Westport, Ma. U.S.A.
Quote
http://www.csi-composites.com/
i worked on an open 60 rig in this shop. great bunch of guys. best products. ive got their stuff on my boat.
I think I can safely say I'd recommend this shop too. I know Mark, and in addition to being a catsailor, he's devoted to his work, and craftsmanship. His crew is a good bunch too.

Re: Where to get a custom carbon mast? [Re: Brian_Mc] #137621
03/25/08 10:21 AM
03/25/08 10:21 AM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 756
Newport, RI
wildtsail Offline
old hand
wildtsail  Offline
old hand

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 756
Newport, RI
hmm well my friend asked Kirk and thats what he was told and I confirmed it with Kirk at midwinters to get the response "yea all said and done, its around there"
Maybe all said and done means with a trailer? In your quote, was he including taxes, shipping from the factory and etc?

Re: Where to get a custom carbon mast? [Re: Jake] #137622
03/25/08 10:24 AM
03/25/08 10:24 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe

Quote

just because it's carbon doesn't make it fast and I'm certain that given enough time and development, an aluminum stick could be made as fast or faster than the carbon stick.



Really funny to see my talking points being expressed by my greatest opponents.

I guess I was just too much ahead of my time when I was rediculed for expressing such views.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Where to get a custom carbon mast? [Re: Jake] #137623
03/25/08 11:39 AM
03/25/08 11:39 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 833
St. Louis, MO,
Mike Hill Offline
old hand
Mike Hill  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 833
St. Louis, MO,
Quote

The N20 mast is pretty heavy for a carbon stick and it's not terribly stiff - BUT one could argue that it is pretty darn durable. I've only seen a few break and most of those reasons were pretty obviously not the mast's fault (flipping in the surf).


Well I can't say that they are that durable. I broke one at Nationals in Tybee one year. I was surfing down a wave and slammed into the wave in front. My crew blew the chute but the stress of the stop was too much and the mast snapped. I wasn't too pleased about it since I had chartered the boat.

Anyway I picked up and stepped that F16 blade mast and was amazed at how light that aluminum mast was. I could almost pick it up and step it like a laser.

I don't want to go back to a 60lbs mast. That wouldn't be acceptable in my book. Stepping my P19, H20, and N6.0 masts were a beast.

Mike Hill

Re: Where to get a custom carbon mast? [Re: Mike Hill] #137624
03/25/08 11:44 AM
03/25/08 11:44 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,226
Atlanta
bvining Offline
veteran
bvining  Offline
veteran

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,226
Atlanta
The i20 mast shape could be improved as well, a pear shape is fatter than a true wing shape, so it you make a mast in a wing shape its going to have less surface area and less material, (alum or carbon) so it will be lighter in that regard. Its also going to be stiffer by nature, more material in the fore/aft axis.
If the i20 class does go to Forte, they should demand a true wing mast shape, dont go with the T section he's using now.

I'm a fan of the Forte stuff, its durable and less expensive. A $1000 wing mast secion would be awesome, think about a second mast for you Acat to go out in a blow, or to use when its windy, make it stffer. Anyway a Forte wing mast would be a good thing.

Bill

Re: Where to get a custom carbon mast? [Re: Mike Hill] #137625
03/25/08 11:46 AM
03/25/08 11:46 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Quote
Quote

The N20 mast is pretty heavy for a carbon stick and it's not terribly stiff - BUT one could argue that it is pretty darn durable. I've only seen a few break and most of those reasons were pretty obviously not the mast's fault (flipping in the surf).


Well I can't say that they are that durable. I broke one at Nationals in Tybee one year. I was surfing down a wave and slammed into the wave in front. My crew blew the chute but the stress of the stop was too much and the mast snapped. I wasn't too pleased about it since I had chartered the boat.

Anyway I picked up and stepped that F16 blade mast and was amazed at how light that aluminum mast was. I could almost pick it up and step it like a laser.

I don't want to go back to a 60lbs mast. That wouldn't be acceptable in my book. Stepping my P19, H20, and N6.0 masts were a beast.

Mike Hill


Yeah, your's sucked but it was the only boat-standing breakage I've ever seen on an I20 stick though.


Jake Kohl
Re: Where to get a custom carbon mast? [Re: Jake] #137626
03/25/08 11:52 AM
03/25/08 11:52 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
T
ThunderMuffin Offline
Carpal Tunnel
ThunderMuffin  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
T

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
Quote
If the i20 class does go to Forte, they should demand a true wing mast shape, dont go with the T section he's using now.


Well since the question became (and sorry about the hijack) "how to keep costs down so the class survives" then we need to examine how to keep the class alive as it relates to the mast.

I don't think that changing the mast drastically would promote class health. If huge performance gains are made by changing the stick, you've obsoleted every used boat out there until it goes to the new stick.

Re: Where to get a custom carbon mast? [Re: Wouter] #137627
03/25/08 12:21 PM
03/25/08 12:21 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,226
Atlanta
bvining Offline
veteran
bvining  Offline
veteran

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,226
Atlanta
Wouter,
We are all aware of the pro/cons of carbon vs aluminum. You dont have to remind us.

I dont think an aluminum i20 mast would be lighter than the current carbon one, it will be less expensive, but probably heavier. The wall thickness on the i20 mast is pretty thin, so its not like they are over engineering them.

If they use a domestic supplier, go with a wing mast, they will use less material and the mast will be better and cheaper.

Bill

Re: Where to get a custom carbon mast? [Re: ThunderMuffin] #137628
03/25/08 12:37 PM
03/25/08 12:37 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,226
Atlanta
bvining Offline
veteran
bvining  Offline
veteran

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,226
Atlanta
Quote
I don't think that changing the mast drastically would promote class health. If huge performance gains are made by changing the stick, you've obsoleted every used boat out there until it goes to the new stick.


My point was that if you are going to change, make it a wing mast.

Re: Where to get a custom carbon mast? [Re: bvining] #137629
03/25/08 03:29 PM
03/25/08 03:29 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 733
Home is where the harness is.....
Will_R Offline
old hand
Will_R  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 733
Home is where the harness is.....
Here's a kick in the face.... M20 mast? 9k!!

I asked Jim Young back in October a/b putting that stick on the I20. His reply, "nah we're not going to do it b/c the carbon masts stand up to the crazy stuff you all do on the 20's better." Next thing I know two months later the rumors a/b an Al mast start flying.

I have no problems so long as the performance hit is negligeble... I think most people would feel the same way. The newer alloys and shapes could provide us with a mast that might sacrifice a couple of pounds but save us a few more in the pocket book. A new one will however probably obsolete the older mains but that's already been done with the recent spreader change.

I've done some CRAZY stuff with an I20 and never had a rig fail but I've seen a couple go. We were right behind Mark Murry when they broke their mast in the '02 W1k. It broke in a gust when they let the main go. Also saw one in Tampa at Hobie Midwinters East WAY back when the boat first came out. Was blowing 30 and I think someone eased the main in a gust... POP!! I've been to hell and back under those sticks... take care of keeping proper structure and not whipping it too hard and it will hold up for quite a while.

Re: Where to get a custom carbon mast? [Re: bvining] #137630
03/25/08 04:05 PM
03/25/08 04:05 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,383
Kingston SE South Australia
JeffS Offline
veteran
JeffS  Offline
veteran

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,383
Kingston SE South Australia
G'day Bill I understand the alloy being stronger in a wingmast without much mast rotation but doesnt it bend excessively if you've got a fair bit of rotation and main on hard? I had heard that the main benefit of carbon was its quick snap back into position after a gust etc would the new alloys match that?
regards


Jeff Southall
Current boats
Nacra 5.8 1703 Animal Scanning Services
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Arrow 1576
Re: Where to get a custom carbon mast? [Re: Brian_Mc] #137631
03/25/08 09:47 PM
03/25/08 09:47 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 305
toronto, canada
B
basket.case Offline
enthusiast
basket.case  Offline
enthusiast
B

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 305
toronto, canada
Quote
Quote
http://www.csi-composites.com/
i worked on an open 60 rig in this shop. great bunch of guys. best products. ive got their stuff on my boat.
I think I can safely say I'd recommend this shop too. I know Mark, and in addition to being a catsailor, he's devoted to his work, and craftsmanship. His crew is a good bunch too.


mark is a good [censored]. spent a long time working with him.

Page 2 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  Damon Linkous 

Search

Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 555 guests, and 81 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Darryl, zorro, CraigJ, PaulEddo2, AUS180
8150 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics22,404
Posts267,055
Members8,150
Most Online2,167
Dec 19th, 2022
--Advertisement--
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1