If it's not, then why the concern? If not a common practice, then just a wise opinion is enough to cool down isolated passions, or to clarify misunderstood intentionalities, as on the opti killer discussion not long ago.

Mary,

You may be confusing 'censorship' with 'rules'...

Only the government can censor, not a private business or individual. When the government edits reading lists, who can write, what they can write, who can broadcast, and what can be broadcast.... then we have censorship.

When 'Wall Mart' will not stock a particular CD, it is NOT censorship, rather; it is business making a decision. When someone comes over to my house, I insist they do not smoke. You may do the same. Mary, this is YOUR house... you call the rules. If you think someone has crossed the line, by all means, erase/ edit the post. This is your right. This is not censorship.... it is rules...

Now that we got that squared away.... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mary, OK - I spent a few minutes over there and I now see what you are talking about. Moderators deleting threads is not cool. Punishing offenders is.

I think this discussion should be more about "what is moderation?" instead of the censorship thing. There is a way to keep things under control without deleting content. The user is the problem - not the thread.

Tornado, thanks for the laugh!!!!

Well unfortunately attacking certain classes has become vogue and has been going on for a long time, probably since Hereshoff invented cats. We should not attack each other but rather work together to win more converts from the monohull crowd.

I think that it is important to NOT censor discussions even if it is not going your way. Deleting a thread greatly reduces the viability and reputation of this forum, and the F16 class. Are the F16 people trying to hide something? I also saw a few posts on the breakage that occurred recently disappear.

I think that a discussion on weight was important, whether or not the discussion was between class members or not. The discussion perhaps became a bit redundant after a while, but I don't think it got out of hand. This was definitely not a case of attacking anything. Best solution by the f16 class was to ignore it and not respond. Mary please do not allow moderators to delete threads, for the sake of the reputation of YOUR forum.

Also I think that bullying should not be permitted. There are few individuals that just do not want to think that there are people with different opinions and have actively criticized other people's views in quite a rude fashion. By allowing a moderator to delete a topic you are allowing someone to bully others.

Mary I think we all apreciate the fact that this forum is not like a lot of the monohull forums and that we are quite civilized.

Everyone has opinions. I think verbal attackers should be warned. If they don't stop then Mary should delete post then. If that person continues THEN kick them from board. That is the way we did it on our local board.

Works real good. No one like abuse.

Doug

Excellent point.

I don't think we actually have any rules on this Open Forum, but maybe the F16 Forum could set up some rules that would make it easier for them to control.

You have put this into perspective for me. A group or class forum is THEIR house, designed to be inhabited by their "family," and they deserve to be able to protect themselves from endless outside harassment and lay down the rules of etiquette for visitors.

Sounds right to me.

The Open Forum is a whole different thing. The sailors on this forum are SO good at putting people in their place when they are out of line. It is self-moderating.

Why sensor anything? Language, personal attacks, etc? Sailing Anarchy has to be the most popular sailing forums. I like reading it, but I don't post to it too often. I don't know if it is due to the size and there by just having more people that are massive pricks, OR if because nothing is censored and things come across as more harsh.

I personally don't like threads disappearing. I don't recall there every being anything viscious on here except for the way some people responded to the retards/arguing on the internet picture. But that's your own choice. What is taboo for some isn't for others, and if you don't like it don't hang your butt out to get burned.

Just because a topic has been hammered to absolute death, or that it is pointless doesn't mean that it has to disappear. There is nothing to be gained from removing such things. The same goes for threads that have gone stray from their original topics. There is nothing wrong with it.

Ignore user. I really don't understand this, or maybe I'm thicker skinned, or don't mind idiots. I know I cannot be offended. I can be angered, embarresed, or proven stupid but offended is a term/feeling I honestly have no personal experience with.

You should also be able to, as moderator, lock a thread and stop anymore posts on it. I would consider those options before deleting stuff.

Yeah, but they're really in a room in your house with us here in another room. We're all one community and should interact like one

...where did Rick put the keys to the model A?

Hmmmmm. So you are saying that I should interfere with what other people do in their rooms and I also should give you the keys to our car? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

To delete a whole thread is JUST PLAIN WRONG – an abuse of the “power” entrusted to “MODERATORS! As a moderator (moderator means moderation, not dictatorship) to arbitrarily ‘delete” that which you simply – don’t agree with – is NOT moderation but propagandist censorship with overtones from NAZI logic. Always remember, “A little power corrupts, total power corrupts totally”. Just my moderations worth.
“Rules of engagement” for participating within this site means something entirely different from censorship. Rules are acceptable and understood up front before joining in. Censorship is something that is slammed down with a heavy hand after the fact without prior knowledge of the mental workings of the one who decides and who then wields the axe of the censorship WITH NO RECOURSE FOR APPEAL. A moderator who CENSORS instead of MODERATES is introducing a system of “star chamber” decisions and actions, definitely not the actions of “fairness. Democracy and debate”.

Exactly!, and while we're at it, where did he hide the keg?
<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Isn't there already a site for that?

The map is in the safety deposit box, and we can't find the key.

Everybody, please research the matter properly before passing judgement.

Only one thread was deleted because it was a carbon copy of several other threads that had been spwaned for months and are indeed still available on the F16 forum. All others releated threads were locked. As such nothing is lost.

Actually it was Mary Wells herself who proposed to delete that thread and moderator Phill Brander complied.

No post about any breakage was ever deleted by a moderator. As a matter of fact, actually breakages instead of prophesized ones were not really part of these discussion. The post by PTP about his hull cracking (and being replaced by VMW under warranty) was altered by PTP himself (as is his right). Those posts and threads are still available on the F16 forum.

The fact of the matter is that a certain person was actively testing how far he could push it and he has finally reached the threshold after working it hard for months and despite tens of invitations and warnings to take the official routes or accept that his view is not shared by others despite repeated discussions. At this time the danger was that every single thread was hijacked into a one-man crusade to effect a rule change that was simply not supported by a majority of the F16 class members. Even I never got close to pushing it that far.

At a certain point in time the forum authority has got to make good on her policy or be defanged as a paper tiger, this was such a time.

You guys are now making things up about censoring that bare only scant resemblence to the situation at hand. We are in constant communication with the forum owners on how to handle the situation, even before this thing happened.

Wouter

There is such a policy in place.

Wouter

Censorhip is a slippery slope and leads to intellectual dullening of the spirit and always ultimately destroys what it seeks to protect. Discussion permits the development of ideas and the occasional decline of a discussion into a shouting match is the price you pay for for having a free exchange of ideas. Of course there's a time and place for everything and you might not always be able or in the mood to discuss your differing points of view. You should always be able to say: "not now" and if the other party persists in challenging you, that's bad form on their part. But even the PITA types that always vehemently express their opinions serve a purpose. They make you consider your own opinions and when you consider you're right your opinion is all the stronger for it, if you conclude after consideration that you were mistaken, even better, you get to form a new and better opinion. The PITA types even act as a role model: "whatever I do, I don't want to behave like that rectal orifice"

“The clash of ideas is the sound of freedom.” -Ladybird Johnson

"The clash of ideas brings forth the spark of truth." -?

As Inter_Michael rightly said, "censorship" is not the right term. It is about house rules.

I consider the F16 Forum to be THEIRS, and I think they have the right to handle it in any way they want. If it had been a class or group forum of which I was a leader, I would have deleted that thread long before. I thought the class used admirable restraint. They seemed to be waiting for permission from me, although they do not need that -- all they need is a consensus from their own moderators.

For Rick and I, our own primary class forum is the Wave Class. If somebody came into that forum and started harassing the class or badmouthing the boats, he would be kicked out the door.

Why would you bother to get a separate meeting room for your group if you have no way of controlling the people who come into your room?

It is beyond rude to go to a class website and bully them for months on end because some big manufacturer doesn't like their rules.

The people in the F16 forum listened patiently (and then impatiently) to everything he had to say -- over and over and over -- and they made it clear they did not agree with his proposals, but he kept coming back, and, as Wouter said, hijacking every thread he could to again start hammering away.

Most of that is still on the F16 Forum. As I have said several times, I found the debate fascinating, but in a generic kind of way. After that last thread on the subject was deleted (at my suggestion), I immediately started a thread on the Open Forum about weight issues and told Macca he was welcome to carry on the debate there. He has done so to some extent, and I thank him for that, because it IS interesting. And I have complete confidence in the sailors on the Open Forum to stomp on specific class-bashing. Because, who knows, YOUR class could be next. We all need to respect each other's boat choices.

Mark Schneider's post on this thread did a good job of summarizing the weight issues that have been brought up by Macca, and if anybody wants to pursue those, they should do so on the "Relative weight" thread in this OPEN Forum.

As far as "censorship" or "house rules," I think I have learned some things from this thread.
1. People who have their own rooms should be able to police them.
2. I can trust y'all in the Open Forum to balance things out on your own.
3. I still sit Indian style, but I didn't know that was offending American Indians. I thought it was Indian as in India.

Sorry about such a long post. I'm getting as bad as Wouter. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

its not length its the quality of whats contained ! so they say <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Don't worry yur babble can hardly be compared to Wooter , by the way think he has a sole mate in usa , a certain Doug Lord in SA forums seems to evoke the same response in otherwise reasonable folks that Woouter does