| |  Re: rules again
[Re: Robi]
#141958
05/05/08 01:29 AM 05/05/08 01:29 AM |
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH... Mary 
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Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH... | If I am not mistaken only boats that are 20+ in length are required to carry a protest flag. You are right, of course, but I think this was an unfortunate change in rules that did not take catamarans and fast planing monohulls (like 49ers and other skiffs) into consideration. I think that protest flags are even more important for us than for big boats. At the speeds we travel when it is windy, and the way we come together and separate so quickly (like mating fruit flies), it is sometimes difficult to hear somebody who is hailing "Protest." So a VISUAL signal like a protest flag can be very helpful. I do not understand why they eliminated the requirement for a protest flag on the small boats. | | | Re: rules again
[Re: Mary]
#141959
05/05/08 02:08 AM 05/05/08 02:08 AM |
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,584
+31NL Tony_F18
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+31NL | If I am not mistaken only boats that are 20+ in length are required to carry a protest flag. You are right, of course, but I think this was an unfortunate change in rules that did not take catamarans and fast planing monohulls (like 49ers and other skiffs) into consideration. I think that protest flags are even more important for us than for big boats. At the speeds we travel when it is windy, and the way we come together and separate so quickly (like mating fruit flies), it is sometimes difficult to hear somebody who is hailing "Protest." So a VISUAL signal like a protest flag can be very helpful. I do not understand why they eliminated the requirement for a protest flag on the small boats. The thing some dutch sailors do (especially non-spin cats) is drum on the side of the hull to make you heard. Sometimes its much easier to hear than shouting, try it out. | | | Re: rules again
[Re: Robi]
#141960
05/05/08 04:19 AM 05/05/08 04:19 AM |
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi... scooby_simon
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding.... |
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
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Looking for a Job, I got credi... | Murphy.
That being said, Murph you OWE the ROW its two boat lengths. If its an F16 you must give 32ft of room. If its an I20 that would be 40ft.
Where does that come from?; You do not have to give them the length of the boat x 2 to round.
F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD I also talk sport here | | | Re: rules again
[Re: HMurphey]
#141961
05/05/08 05:21 AM 05/05/08 05:21 AM |
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348 fin. OP
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OP
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| | | | Re: rules again
[Re: Robi]
#141962
05/05/08 06:06 AM 05/05/08 06:06 AM |
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan PTP
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Michigan | Note to self:
Never share the race course with the previous poster. yeah, doesn't sound fun | | | Re: rules again
[Re: HMurphey]
#141964
05/05/08 07:06 AM 05/05/08 07:06 AM |
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi... scooby_simon
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Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
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Looking for a Job, I got credi... | Gentlemen,
READ the RULES ... KNOW the RULES
I've raced in OVER 150+ Hobie Points Regettas ... 150+ "open Regettas (all 2 day events) plus ??? 1 day events!!!! DON'T TRY what you are proposing up here in Div11
Lets say you do do what you propose ... I may let you through then cut inside of you and roll you leaving you in "dirty air ... and the guys following me will do the same thing!!! You will be just sitting there trying to make a 360 degree turn ... isn't that called a PENALTY TURN???
The winning tactic is to come in 5-10 boat lengths above the mark on Starboard w/ no other rules in effect ... jybe ... get you boat speed up and then make a 270 degee turn!!!
I would love to share a race course w/ you guys ... because I would WIN!!! Up here I'm usually in the hunt ... but in third place ...
Harry I think most of us do know the rules; Why would you want to come in 5-10 boats from the mark; that will give room for around 10+ boats inside you (8x16b feet is 118 feet / 8 gives room for around 10). madness. You will get loads of dirty and be well to leeward. Not a good plan at all. You come in at about 3 lengths so you can execute the gybe just outside the 2 BL zone. If you don't you are buried in a big regatta. Sounds to me like you think you know the rules.
F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD I also talk sport here | | | Re: rules again
[Re: HMurphey]
#141965
05/05/08 07:21 AM 05/05/08 07:21 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina Jake
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South Carolina | Pete,
Can I assume you are sailing your "Blade" which has daggerboards???? And it is a "Port" course.
1)A daggerboard boat pivots at on/its boards
2) You must give enough room for a "seamanshiply rounding"
You are only going to get 15' maybe 20'(if I am feeling generous) from me ... thats all ... not 32' or more.
You hit me ... I do care a flag and will fly it ...
You are crazy sir if you try to push that with a fleet of experienced A-Fleeters. I had a fleet of H17's hang me on the mark when they only allowed me 8' to round one time w/ my TheMightyHobie18 ... I wasn't going to T-bone anyone as the TheMightyHobie18's bow would take most of the damage. Lost my Telocat and was so pissed I damn near pulled out my knife to cut/deflate the mark between my hulls ... but then I thought better of it....
Remember: To finish first ... first you have too finish. Boats w/ holes go really slow
PS: Watched my friends ED Mills and John McLaughlin racing their "Blades" this weekend while I was on RC ... AWESOME!!! That is some ride you have there ... I may have to get me one of those machines!!!
HarryMurphey
H18mag/#9458, Fleet54/Div11
P19MX w/spin /#86, CRAC Not true - we had this situation come up recently and, previously, I too thought that the port boat only had to give just enough room for the starboard boat to round. This is NOT the case. Port has NO rights coming into a downwind mark with starboard inside boats in this situation. I don't have time this morning to quote the rules...someone help me out?
Jake Kohl
| | | Re: rules again
[Re: Jake]
#141967
05/05/08 07:46 AM 05/05/08 07:46 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina Jake
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South Carolina | aaa screw the workin'. Here are the rules that apply to this situation. First Rule 18 and it's exlusions: Rule 18 (nutshell version); inside boat gets room to pass between outside boat and mark (including room to tack or gybe when either is a normal part of the manuever).
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18.1b Rule 18 DOES NOT APPLY when boats are on opposite tacks or when the proper course for one of them (not both) to round or pass the mark is to tack.
Most people stop reading there and incorrectly think this applies to a boat that is gybing - but keep reading.. 18.2D; changing course to round or pass
Rule 16 does not apply between a right-of-way boat who is changing course to round or pass a mark .
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Rule 16 (which no longer applies inside the c-mark zone): when a right-of-way boat changes course, she shall give the other boat room to keep clear - RULE 16 IS EXCLUDED FOR THE STARBOARD BOAT WHO IS GYBING TO ROUND THE MARK if there is impact, it's port's fault. Port has to do more than just allow starboard room - port is obliged to stay out of starboard's way while she rounds. this is also noteable 18.4 Gybing
when an inside overlapped right-of-way boat (the starboard spin boat) must gybe at a mark or obstruction to sail her proper course, until she gybes she shall sail no farther from the mark or obstruction than needed to sail that course. Note; this does not mean that port has rights - only that starboard can't be a putz when rounding the mark and if starboard fouls the spinnaker drop and sails past the mark, they are protestable. Nutshell conclusion;
A starboard boat coming into c-mark inside the 2 length zone has all the rights in the world to round without consideration for the port boat. However, she can't sail past the layline to the mark. Port needs to stay clear
Jake Kohl
| | | Re: rules again
[Re: fin.]
#141968
05/05/08 08:26 AM 05/05/08 08:26 AM |
Anonymous
Unregistered
| Anonymous
Unregistered
| Perhaps I can shed some light, since I was the starboard boat.
First off it was great for me just to be out there and competitively
sailing and racing boat for boat with some F16's. Pete, Stefan+Lisa and I
were battling back and fourth all day. Pete and Stefan could get me windward
and I would always reel them downwind and sometimes upwind. Coming down to the C mark on this
particular leg Pete and Stefan were ahead of me, when they gibed to starboard to run out before there last gibe to port for the mark, I noticed
they seemed to both stall and there boats both started to bounce up and down, I figured a wind shift which was bad for them but me still on starboard would lift me into the mark which it did. Now at the C mark
I was not even thinking 2 boat length, rights on who or anything I was thinking Stephan and Pete already on port heating it up and coming in,
I still had to douse and round so I choose to duck to do my stuff and beat them
on the next downwind leg which would of been the finish. Instead my trapeze line broke on the beat and I went swimming.
Just goes to show you that the best laid plans can still go splash. | | | Re: rules again
[Re: ]
#141969
05/05/08 09:19 AM 05/05/08 09:19 AM |
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969 brucat
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| Wow, reading this thread certainly is all over the map...
I don't have time to look up the relevant rules, but have to agree with Jake. At a Dave Perry seminar a few years back, he spent something like 30-45 minutes discussing the differences between same-tack overlap and opposite-tack overlap.
Short version:
Same-tack overlap: inside has to make a seaman-like rounding
Opposite-tack overlap: starboard has the right to make a tactical rounding
Now, I don't sail a spin boat, so I can't answer how practical it is for a Tiger to come in at two lengths, flying the chute, at full speed and have the ability to douse, gybe and get around the mark without going well beyond what my Hobie 16 coming in on port would need. I just try to stay out of the way...
Mike | | | Re: rules again
[Re: Jake]
#141970
05/05/08 09:22 AM 05/05/08 09:22 AM |
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH... Mary
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Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH... | I can't quote rules, but I know absolutely that you are right, Jake. That's why it is so advantageous to come in to the leeward mark on starboard (when it is marks to port). The starboard boats not only have inside overlap, they also are the right-of-way boats. The port-tack boats not only have to give the starboard-tack boats room to round, they have to give them enough room to make a TACTICAL mark rounding (enter wide, exit close). It would be different, of course, if rounding the mark to starboard. Then the port-tack boats would have the inside overlap, but would not be right-of-way boats, so the starboard boats would only have to give them enough room to get around the mark without hitting it. By the way, all these rules would take on a different complexion if the mark was a big iron bell buoy instead of a nice soft vinyl ball. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> | | | Re: rules again
[Re: Mary]
#141974
05/05/08 10:01 AM 05/05/08 10:01 AM |
Anonymous
Unregistered
| Anonymous
Unregistered
| I find it hard to believe you hot shots are unaware that the 2 boat length circle is frequently bigger.
Flame on
aa | | | Re: rules again
[Re: Rhino1302]
#141975
05/05/08 10:06 AM 05/05/08 10:06 AM |
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 121
Valencia - Spain aestela
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member
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Posts: 121
Valencia - Spain | If you want to see R18 discussions and analysis you can try SAILX Protest RoomThe Protest Room is where SAILX users go to file protests. A protest to be valid has to be documented with a small video (the replay of the incident). Once filed everyone can give his/her point of view and state the facts according to the rule book. Moderators and general users can replay the incident, slow motion, pause, etc, and all discussion is kept in a forum thread like this. (Sorry to hijack the thead) aestela. | | | Re: rules again
[Re: aestela]
#141976
05/05/08 10:36 AM 05/05/08 10:36 AM |
Anonymous
Unregistered
| Anonymous
Unregistered
| Now if you want to protest, how this, during the first GYC race, leg one to A, a situation of me on starboard another F16(SS) on port, a clear collision course. I hail starboard No response from other boat, like hold your course or anything. Before collision I give way and duck. I think the rules are there so two parties on two separate boats basically know well in advance what is the right and responsible thing to do. At this time I am not ready to competitively race with SS so ducking doesn't bother me even though I had clear rights. But it may also mean that at some point of some race and I was faced with a choice to help or hinder said individual l may choose to hinder. You don't earn brownie points for the future when clearly ignoring ROW. But anyways it is still great to be out on the water sailing and competing with my friends. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> | | |
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