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Why are we different? #146016
06/17/08 11:46 AM
06/17/08 11:46 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,152
tampa, fl
K
ksurfer2 Offline OP
old hand
ksurfer2  Offline OP
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K
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,152
tampa, fl
What makes sailing different? US Sailing announced today that it would not pursue the mandatory membership. I work in a field that involves me with many sporting organization. No swimmer on any of our swim teams my stick a toe in the pool until they are a member of US Swimming, no gymnastics team members may set one foot in the gym until they are a member of USA Gymnastics. For most of these kids (and adults on the masters swim team), they will only compete locally, and those who excell will travel to regional competitions, a select few will even compete nationally. What makes their sports different from ours? Just like us, they are competing under a set of guidlines established by their governing body. Just like us, their events are conducted under the guidance and judging of officials trained by their governing body, and just like us, their governing body provides the avenues for elite competion through national championships (think Alter Cup), and the Olympics. So why do they have to join to compete and not us? Why are we different?
I am a member of US Sailing and will continue to be one. I will continue to receive training from US Sailing to further my skills in race administration and judging. Why? I guess, because I love the sport. One day those of you who do not see that it is necessary to join, may get to race only because I, and others who see the benefits, continue to be members, receive the training, and volunteer our time to the sport. Rant over.


If your havin girl problems i feel bad for you son
I got 99 problems but my beautiful wife ain't one
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Why are we different? [Re: ksurfer2] #146017
06/17/08 12:40 PM
06/17/08 12:40 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 503
BrianK Offline
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BrianK  Offline
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Posts: 503
One potential difference that I see is the PERCEIVED value of US Sailing membership from catamaran sailors, as compared to other athletes and their national organizations (as in the cases you mentioned).

Personally, actions of US Sailing often leave me feeling that we (catamaran sailors) are there for them (membership dues), rather than US Sailing being there for the good of the ENTIRE sport of sailing.

If I only sailed monohulls, I would join US Sailing based on your premise.

If there were an organization that I felt truly represented all catamaran sailors, I would join and would encourage others to do so.

If you sail at Alter Cup, or at a nationals, I agree you may benefit from the race official training and/or other aspects. What about all the sailors that dont race at that level? Our statewide regattas dont require certified officials, nor do our fleet races. I look at it from an individual basis. If your racing at a level that you think US Sailing is helpful, then join and support them.

In short, too many catsailors dont feel that US Sailing IS their national organization, so its not a fair comparison to other sports.

Re: Why are we different? [Re: BrianK] #146018
06/17/08 01:07 PM
06/17/08 01:07 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,281
Long Beach, California
J
John Williams Offline
Carpal Tunnel
John Williams  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,281
Long Beach, California
Both points of view are valid - I recognize there are widely varying opinions on the matter.

For me, cat sailing is sailing, and USSA is the NGB of sailing. I'm stuck in an upsidedown position right now in that I'm spending more time and effort working for the top-level organization for sailing rather than concentrating on my club and class - I'm there because I felt like it was "my turn," and I'm glad there are term limits. I derive a lot of value from USSA but I recognize not everyone can connect those dots - and there's nothing wrong with that. That value is what made me feel like I needed to take "my turn" and because I'm in a position that allows me some free time, I get to "give back." It definitely isn't for everyone and as it happened, I got to "give back" during a particularly volatile time. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, glad a membership prescription is off the radar. Next crisis, please.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Why are we different? [Re: ksurfer2] #146019
06/17/08 01:08 PM
06/17/08 01:08 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,303
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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Posts: 12,303
South Carolina
As opposed to the sports you list, the stark difference is that you can sail a boat on a lake or ocean without the need for special facilities (a gym, a pool, etc.). You could argue that in order to use the facilities at sailing and yacht clubs you should have to be a member but I don't think this is the sort of thing you can back into. The large majority of our sailing facilities existed long before US Sailing.

In the case of the pools and gyms, the sanctioning body helps them organize the facility and the sports. It works the other way around for sailing - all our club (Keowee Sailing Club) events have always been organized internally with no input from an outside organization other than the use of a widely accepted rule book (I am not arguing for or against the benefits provided by US Sailing).


Jake Kohl
Re: Why are we different? [Re: Jake] #146020
06/17/08 02:22 PM
06/17/08 02:22 PM

A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A


I wonder of the Pilgrims were members...

Re: Why are we different? [Re: ksurfer2] #146021
06/17/08 03:40 PM
06/17/08 03:40 PM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 22
Kansas, USA
J
jragg Offline
stranger
jragg  Offline
stranger
J
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 22
Kansas, USA
Ive been lurking this forum for close to a year now, and Ive got to chime in on some of the misinformation in the first post.

I swam competitively for a little over 12 years. Stating that everyone who swims in a meet has to be a member of United States Swimming (USS) is a bit of a stretch. Anyone who swims in a USS sanctioned meet has to be a member of USS. There are TONS of other smaller organizations to swim under. There are plenty of local leagues for smaller scale meets. You dont have to be a member of USS to swim in a country club league, a local city league, high school/state leagues, or even to swim for the NCAA. In the 4 years I swam NCAA I didnt have a USS membership. I didnt bother with going to USS national events because I was competing in NCAA national events, therefore I didnt need a membership.

The big difference is that to swim in USS sanctioned meets then you need to be a member of USS. They run Jr. nationals, Sr. nationals, and Olympic trials. So if youre going to be competing on a national level you have to be a member.

What US Sailing was proposing was that even those beer can races (read local leagues) would require membership. That was part of the big gripe wasnt it? Even the guy who raced one time in a Hobie regatta would be required to be a member of US sailing.

Re: Why are we different? [Re: jragg] #146022
06/17/08 07:04 PM
06/17/08 07:04 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,221
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,221
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
US Sailing is like OPEC ,you pay 'em to screw you.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Why are we different? [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #146023
06/17/08 07:16 PM
06/17/08 07:16 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Hey Todd... cute.. but asinie

Is that what John Williams has been doing to you for the last several years.?

Darline??

Gordon ???

They are the volunteers that you are talking about.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Why are we different? [Re: Mark Schneider] #146024
06/17/08 08:24 PM
06/17/08 08:24 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 503
BrianK Offline
addict
BrianK  Offline
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Posts: 503
Yes.
No.
Maybe.

JW. Sailing with the man. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Re: Why are we different? [Re: John Williams] #146025
06/17/08 09:37 PM
06/17/08 09:37 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,582
“an island in the Pacific....
hobie1616 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
hobie1616  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,582
“an island in the Pacific....
Quote
USSA is the NGB of sailing.

No Good Bastards?


US Sail Level 2 Instructor
US Sail Level 3 Coach
Re: Why are we different? [Re: hobie1616] #146026
06/17/08 11:07 PM
06/17/08 11:07 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,281
Long Beach, California
J
John Williams Offline
Carpal Tunnel
John Williams  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
J
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,281
Long Beach, California
Quote
No Good Bastards?


*snicker*


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Why are we different? [Re: John Williams] #146027
06/18/08 12:07 AM
06/18/08 12:07 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,221
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,221
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Hey Mark ,
Is an asinie any thing like a bikini? If your gonna insult someone at least spell it correctly, DORK. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> Back to the subject.
Why do "volunteers" need dues?
I 'm guessing that John,Jake,et.al. are as upset as the rest of us about USS' lack of support and that's probably the reason they do as much as they do(which I thank them for). I'm real tired of folks like USS' higher ups, wanting my money and not doing much to earn it.I'm having to work harder than ever to make it.It ain't easy for us "PRO" sailors.If I gotta shell out my hard earned cash JW and gang should get paid. I definitely would join a Multi specific group like BK was mentioning, I think that would be the way to go.
And by the way JW is a NGB ,he stole my beachwheels for that evil no good metric JC fella.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Why are we different? [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #146028
06/18/08 08:35 AM
06/18/08 08:35 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Todd... you missed the news while you were doing the tybee ...

ISAF just made a ruling that kicks you out of the PRO sailing ranks.. (Seriously) <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So... now you are just a normal?? SOB on the water. You can sticker your boat and sail to your hearts content and be just like me... albeit with an ugly boat! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> (Can I have your T shirt?)

Dues... Same answer as to why does a class association need dues. If what they do is run a north americans... why don't they just charge the participants who show up the full cost of the event?

Unless you think those guys are SOBs as well, they must do more behind the scenes that costs money that you are not aware of.

(ps... it was spelled correctly) <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Any chance you are coming up for the Oxford race.. the 20 guys are talking about getting the house again.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Why are we different? [Re: Mark Schneider] #146029
06/18/08 08:47 AM
06/18/08 08:47 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 975
South Louisiana, USA
Clayton Offline
old hand
Clayton  Offline
old hand
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 975
South Louisiana, USA
Quote
(ps... it was spelled correctly) <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />



asinie? I'm sorry but my degree is not in literary English, what is an ASINIE? Is that a person with ASININE tendencies? Sorry, just trying to be educated here... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />


On the dues issue, if you (or me) races only ocasionally, i.e. club races or other local venue without any aspirations or the skill to go any further, what again is the benifit? You (collectively) say that USSA provides the PRO or race officers but my understanding is as a PRO or the person running the regatta you pay for your own training, (Just as in swimming, I'm a swim judge). Those costs for us regular folks just makes sailing and "fun" racing more expensive and we're more likely to do even less races. But hey, thats just me.

Clayton

Re: Why are we different? [Re: Clayton] #146030
06/18/08 10:39 AM
06/18/08 10:39 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Well... things are great so long as no problems occur.

Whether its a "fun" race... or a serious race... doesn't really matter when the @#%@ hits the fan does it?

If it's organized... somebody did it and they are now on the hook.

Should you flip your boat and drown it's highly probably that your wife and heirs are going to look for money under every rock and the poor PRO/organizer looks like a good rock.

USSA provides that individual with insurance coverage so that their spouse does not have a heart attack at the prospect of losing their house because they volunteered their time and service.

The paper club has no assets but all of the volunteers they recruit are also sources of cash... USSA started the regatta liability programs that cover your paper club and it's volunteers. Now you have at least two companies that compete to offer this coverage... both because of USSA. So... for that fun race that you want...if your buddy with a powerboat helping out has an accident ... who's insurance get's tapped?

It does not matter if the organizer or race personal have no responsibility... Are they going to walk into court or a deposition without a lawyer? It's just not worth the aggravation in the end..

IMO, its the responsibility of the club to protect it's volunteers and spread the cost among the members and the racers.

It's the racer's responsibility to pay for this and support the activities if you want them to continue.

So when you cut to the chase How do you want to pay for the services needed?

IMO USSA is essential for providing the structure of support that makes a sailboat regatta happen. Is it a benefit that you immediately see ...clearly not.

If you don't want to pay for the service that the organization is using... I would say you are a freeloader.

What to do
You would like to race once or twice a year . Since mandatory membership will not be the solution. Where does that leave you?

My solution is for the regatta to charge you 1/3 of the membership dues for your Club OD Class and USSA for the event. So..assuming that you belong to a club that would be 60 bucks for USSA and 30 for your OD class dues or 90 bucks. Would you object to a surcharge of 30 bucks on top of the regatta fees? Remember, the money stays with the host club.

Hobie events no longer give you a one time weekend pass. If you want to race you have to be a class member. So for these events you would have to pay 20 bucks more if you refused to join USSA.

Obviously if you were going to race more then three times a year it would be to your benefit to join USSA and your class.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Why are we different? [Re: Mark Schneider] #146031
06/18/08 10:59 AM
06/18/08 10:59 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
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Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
I can not help but comment on the litigation issue. I have never been to a regatta where the sailing instructions dont make it clear that the decision to race is the skippers and that the whole responsibility is the skippers. I have been to some regattas where I preferred to stay in safety on land as one or two boats launched to try to score some "easy" points over the rest (not so easy points after all, as it turned out). But even if I thought the organizer should postpone, it was my decision and responsibility to decide. The same when my crew went swimming for 30 minutes in winds strong enough to make it very, very, hard to pick him up again.
I sure hope the litigation issue is not as bad as Mark makes it sound like. The only ones who would want a system like that would be the lawyers.

Re: Why are we different? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #146032
06/18/08 11:14 AM
06/18/08 11:14 AM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 308
Reno NV
R
Rhino1302 Offline
enthusiast
Rhino1302  Offline
enthusiast
R
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 308
Reno NV
Quote
I can not help but comment on the litigation issue. I have never been to a regatta where the sailing instructions dont make it clear that the decision to race is the skippers and that the whole responsibility is the skippers.


It doesn't matter how much language like that you put in SIs or release forms. If a grieving widow and her fatherless children go in front of a jury they'll probably win no matter how weak their case.

And she probably will sue you no matter how many times she declares that she'd never dream of doing something like that.

Re: Why are we different? [Re: Rhino1302] #146033
06/18/08 11:20 AM
06/18/08 11:20 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
How sad. That means I am not responsible for my own actions and decisions and it sure must quell a lot of activity.. I will go away now as I probably am about to derail the whole thread. Sorry Mark.

Re: Why are we different? [Re: Rhino1302] #146034
06/18/08 11:20 AM
06/18/08 11:20 AM

A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A


Welcome to the US of litigious A!

I agree that no matter how much responsability is clearly placed on the skipper... our legal system basically requres a lawsuit naming anyone who could possubly be liable / with cash

Last edited by andrewscott; 06/18/08 11:21 AM.
Re: Why are we different? [Re: Mark Schneider] #146035
06/18/08 11:21 AM
06/18/08 11:21 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 975
South Louisiana, USA
Clayton Offline
old hand
Clayton  Offline
old hand
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 975
South Louisiana, USA
I wrote a good bit (reminded me of Wouter) in response to your post, then decided it wasn't worth it.

You call me a "freeloader"... you know nothing about me.

My feeling is you "racers" don't want regular guys on the course with you cause we don't fit your mold. If you're not hard core you're not $%&#. And we wonder why sailing isn't more popular.

Guess what, I'll cross what little racing I've done off, you guys don't need us regular folks. Its amazing, I used to think cat sailors were regular folks.
<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Clayton

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