I would like to give my two cents opinion here, I am not a competitor but I love A class sailing and I love to fix problems on the boat year after year and to make some big homework like realize a triradial sail for my "old modern" A class cat.
I have red entirely the thread, a lot of discussion, a lot of speculation on big advantages or on resale value of "outdated boats"
well my idea is that I love A Class because it is more technologically advanced than any other beach catamaran commercially available, it is fast and pleasant to sail
I think I would like to try an hydrofoil assisted boat able to enjoy myself in the 4-30 knots range in summertime (I think it would be reaaaaally difficoult to get that with a banana board...)
you say: but this wwould outdate new boats ! well, here I don't see the problem, given that me myself I would be in trouble because I could indifferently decide to change my old modern a cat for the new hydrofoil assisted boat or equally I could decide to buy an almost new "traditional" boat at a sale price.
Given the class as it is now, I WOULD NOT CHANGE my 9 years old woderful and performant carbon a class for nothing new... such as a wavepiercing and similar refinement (usefoul "maybe" only for talented sailor to race in the international arena)
I told you, I love pleasant sailing and the certainty of sailing something technologically ahead in respect to other friends' boat (in other words smarter...)

all this to say that in my opinion A class it is not anymore developmental class but a perfectionated class of a previously developmental class

everything in the end has a cost, either maintainig the class stable as allowing sudden changes

;-)

In practice the boards are designed, angled and placed so that their lift resultant points toward the sails' CE in order to minimize (neutralize) the heeling moment. In this case they are true "Bruce foils".

I believe you will need less than four 1m boards at work to fly an A Class at that speed. Maybe half of it. Also, it makes more sense to use one slightly larger canted board aided by a small horizontal foil in the rudder.

Regards,
Luiz

An original effort with large, externally-fastened surface-piercing foils on a Tornado in UK in the 1970s involved 4 foils. They soon abandoned 4 foil approach. Boat didn't turn.

Dave, does you Jackalope A cat have T foils on the rudders too or just the two Bruce foils up front?

Yes- old Hobie fiberglass rudders have T-foils. The obsolete aluminum surface-piercing foils are located at the front cross bar to provide lift. It works.....
So again- when are you going to appear at Lake Santa Fe this fall to fly it? Ya can't spend the whole year on-line.....

BTW- the foiling A-cat seen in my avatar is 34 years old- epoxy/tortured marine plywood: going strong. In contrast- See the old Tornado discussion ongoing- fragmentary boats not worth restoring or messing with.

Gougeon cold moulded cedar tornados are still good, 30 years later. It is not the boats, it is the building methods and materials. Not many polyester/glass A cats from that era is still in use. Wood is an excellent material for boats, but time consuming and as such uneconomical for manufacturers.

Dave, I will get up there some day, I just hope there is enough wind when I do! BTW, about how much wind does it take to get it up on the foils and how fast does it go when you do?

I will be at the Wildcat regatta in Eustis, Oct. 4-5 (I think) will you be there? Can you bring the Jack a lope or will you have your other A cat?

I'm trying to get both my twin daughters into Florida for next year (one is at Auburn in Vet School now spending a new set of sails every month) so if I can get them in, I will be up there quite a bit, at your house, as soon as I drop them off!

Thanks. Tim

See private mss.

I'm tempted to say two words: Financial aid (or maybe 'student loan').

From what I'm hearing from financial gurus it's better to build your nest egg rather than fund their post-graduate education unless you're 100% positive they will be paying for your entire retirement. If they go off and raise a family, you're not guaranteed they'll pony up (pardon the pun) when you would like to sail off into the sunset...

There are way more options to fund education than retirement...

I like Dave's foil concept. Is it stable in chop/wave action?

Could something similar be designed for a sloop rig with spin? I think it'd be neat on an old Taipan 16 footer that didn't fit the F16 rule ...

Or even better, if you could just switch out the F16 compliant daggarboard/rudders with foils so you can sail either way... But that's probably asking way too much...

I just sold my Marstrom A-class with gennaker, I got an offer I couldn't refuse. My plan is to buy a new Marstrom during the spring and that boat will probably have "banana boards". Marstrom are working on moulds for the boards right now. I will of course fit the boat with the spi snail that I will use for distance racing. Marstrom has a smaller snail now designed for the 17 m2 size of gennakers instead of the M20 version I've been using so far.

The majority of the A-class sailors seems to think it's ok with banana boards and then it's just to follow the class or change class. I decided to stay in the class and upgrade boat. Older Marstrom boats can probably be rebuilt to handle "banana boards", more news about that later when I have facts.

/hakan

I am looking at what the cost is to modify mine right now. I do not think that I want to tackle the issue myself this time. Just too much work and no time to do it. I think that it is good that this is happening and that most of us agree with the decision. In the US we took an informal poll across the country fleet by fleet. I know that there were some disenting votes, but the majority of the class in the states seemed to be of the opinion that this is truly no different than the canting boards that are already allowed. those of us at the back of the fleet have more to worry about than this issue. We need to be able to spend more time on the water and sharpen our sailing skills much more before this issue has any real impact upon us. This issue will play out at the top of the class somewhere between the top 20-40 sailors worldwide. If this truly has the impact that some believe it will, then it could be the deciding factor in National, Continental and World championships.

Hi guys !
After read most of the thread above , i am quite surprised about this fuzz.

How many guys of you did actually raced a 'banana borads 'boat or did race against a banana boards boats with a canted straight boards boat ?

i had the first curved boards a class flyer mk1 in 2004. tested it , raced it in all european regattas and 2004 -2007 worlds etc.
Also sailed last european in La baule agianst Bob baier with his Nils Bunkenburg designed Nikita with the curved boards .
( last two season i race a normal fLYER mk2 ( Egner) with normal canted boards ad are faster then on my old boat with the curved boards which i still owned untill last month)

I can assure you it is really difficult to judge if there is a difference at all between curved boards an sthraight ones , an even more , if it is faster or slower.

There might be some circumstances that it feels faster , there might be some circumstances that is might feel slower .

But clear is± difference between straight old style ´in the hull plane´ boards and common canted board like all new boats is BIGGER then difference between the 'normal'canted boards and curved boards .

When you have EXTREMELY curved boards ( let say Radius 1200 mm) , then off course vertical lift vs lateral is a difference you can detect , but the downside becomes also clear...

so , what makes the differcence then ??

DOWNWIND SAILING TECHNIQUE!

There is much more then 'going flat 'or 'going wild'

There is some 20 degrees of sailing angle in between where you can fiddle around : going mild , or whatever you call it .

Highly dependable on
-waves / chop
-stable or gusty winds
-current/ wave, wind direction
-windspeed of course
-sailors weight : 70 kgs or 85 kgs makes a hell of a difference is the choose of optimal angle downwind.
-rig set up/ mast rake

my impression is that most sailors ( incl myself) are are 'too much sailing wild thing' as you understand what i mean . Quite often sailing slippery down at deep angles pays off better . Lighter guys can do that easier off course then the big guys .

Thats a differerence no curved / straight or canted board will make in a 100 years...



PJ

PJ,

Nice post! You bring up some good points with through your own experience. Thanks.

Tom,

Why would you make this modification now? My boat has square trunks and I could easily add curved boards, but I'm going to wait to let someone else do the experimentation before I go cutting my boat up.

Plus are you racing the boat? Do you really think curved boards are going to make a differience in your results?

I'm not beating you up, I'm just asking because I was going down the same path. I wanted to add curved boards until I started having these same conversations with guys in the class, my sail designer, etc, and the consensus is the I need to work on my technique first, rig second, everything else is a distant 3rd.

Bill

Bill,
I did not say that I am going to do this. Right now I have someone looking at the cost of doing one of two projects. The first would be straight boards, canted and the second is to look at banana boards. I do race the boat, but not enough right now for it to make a difference. I am planning on racing it quite a bit more over the next 12 months. If you read through my post it does state what you say which is that I need to put more into getting time on the water and that everything else can wait. How do you like your new sail?

Yes the A-cat with external foils is quite stable in a fresh breeze. Small sloop with spin and foils? If you are trying to run a spin at 20 knots across the wind- it will be difficult to manage.
Re versatility:
As previously stated, I put the hydrofoils on this boat in the thumbnail pic for the 38 mile Mug Race last year: little wind= poor result. This year I ran it in the Mug Race with a Hobie18SX spin in light air, and was only beaten by 5 larger, much more expensive cats.

To quote Pieterjanned28: >normal FLYER mk2 (Egner) with normal canted boards are faster then on my old boat with the curved boards. Now we get to the point of the matter!

In Europe, apparently "Normal canted boards" are canted in. So I believe that is what he it talking about. In the US, existing A-cats have obsolete vertical trunks or trunks & hulls canted out like my Italian-built 2005 XJ. We have not seen many of these canted-in boats, except on Glenn Ashby's import with which he won the Worlds. I was there, and he was very effective downwind: No bugs on him upwind either.

hi guys ,
In europe all boats build from +/- 2004 till now have hulls canted out by +/- 4 degrees and daggerboards canted in by +/- 7 degrees ( all relative to the vertical plane ).
all boats fit the box rule of << 2300 mm when pulled fully up and >> 1500 mm tip to tip when down
actually most canted boards are +/- 1700-1800 mm tip to tip.

the most extreme curved boards on Bob baire boat are 1580mm tip to tip.

as you see no huge differences between the curved and canted boards

pj