In what part of the site the graphics are? I couldn't find them, only photos.

One reason I love prepreg!! No mixing epoxy just cut, place layer, bag, cook!!

Ok its more expensive to purchase but in labour savings and stress reduction, I think I am way ahead!!

I use the term very affordable with respect to the average retail price in Europe of A class catamarans actually in the EUR 16,000/18,000 range.
The amount of EUR 4,000 is some 25% down, quite an interesting discount!
Very few years ago 1 EUR was worth 0.82 USD:
at this exchange rate the same EUR 12.000 are only USD 9,840. I hope you agree that at such new quotation the boat would be affordable!
Unfortunately when the exchange rate goes down retail prices do not decrease:
the Nacra F18 is priced the same in Europe as it was a couple of years ago.
Taking into account the devaluation of the USD against the EUR, the NACRA F18 should retail at around EUR 11,000 instead of EUR 16,000 plus.

yeah, I guess we should compare apples to apples...not fair to compare it with the value of the dollar today.

Weren't older bims and auscats made of s-glass / kevlar and aluminum beamed closer to the 75kg ready to sail class min.?

Why not just build like that again? I think you lose some rigidity, but that may be better and more marketable than being overweight.

My 2000 Boyer has Kevlar hulls and aluminum cross beams. It's only a few pounds over minimum weight.

The Flyer II from Ashby that I sell here in the States can be built with options considerably less expensive than than the full-on version (that was) advertised on my website. He can build them with alum X bars, boom etc, use fiberglass in the hulls instead of Kevlar and Carbon. The weight will be class minimum and the price, last I checked, was around $4000 less than the Ashby full Kevlar special that I have sold here in the US. It seemed to me that people spending that kind of money on an A-class didn't want to cut the cost by several $1000 dollars and have alum bits and fiberglass in their hulls, so I imported the best of the best as far as options. But... at least for the Flyer II (and I assume for most other A-class) it can be built competitively for considerably less $$$, I just didn't see the market for it here. Is there one?

These details may be slightly different now, as the the last time I checked was a few years ago.

A lot of builders are offering differing levels of A-Cats right now. I know that Bimare as listed here, BlueStreak BoatWerks with the new Peter Cogan designed Evo, John and Ian Lindahl's LR2 and a couple of others allow you to choose your poison.

I stand corrected. I just discovered that there is a fiberglass Bladerider FX coming out.

When Ian and I finished building the three LR2's last fall we sat down and did the numbers game. Cost of materials that go into one boat was over $8,600. (no sail or battens). Costs that aren't included are building jigs, molds for foils and development time that probably never gets recovered. A good designer should be rewarded too. Our garage style build process did net us three boats that were under minimum weight at the Worlds. One at 150 lbs.
Our goal was to have a boat that we could sell at $20,000. or less and be competitive. Goals achieved but we're not getting rich doing it. And ours are custom boats that can be tailored to your specs.
Check out details of the build at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LR2ACATS/
LR2ACATS : LR2 A-Class Catamaran
John Lindahl

hah!...so my 5 minute rough guestulation of $8500 in materials was pretty accurate!

So....It's very clear you can build a boat to weight with less exotic materials.

If the new Bimare boat weighs 200 lbs... How can it be called an A cat.

I am sure it's the perfect boat for some one... just don't muddy the waters and call it an A class.

Technically, it would still be an a-cat. I don't have a problem with it if someone wants to sell or buy a 200 lb boat labeled an a-cat. I think the only time this could be an issue is if someone, who knew very little about cats, purchased one without realizing what the differences are...I can't imagine there are many of those people around and even then, their eventual frustration would be at the dealer - not at the class.

Yes, technically my Dart is an A cat.

As a class member, I think there is value in protecting the brand, A cat.

I agree that no rule prevents the builder from calling it an A class.. but at least call the boat Catnip, since it fits with the old school A class boats. A third variation of an A class would be super silly.

The BS can come about when the sailor enters an open race...He will want an accurate rating.. eg the Heavy A class rating???. The poor scorekeeper is now trying to figure out what the damn rating is. It will be just like the Hobie Tiger F18 and the Hobie Tiger OD rating ..for a scorekeeper this is a silly PIA distinction.

remember USPN does not regulate these issues... So... the heavyA will turn in 5 race results and petition for a provisinal rating and presto you have your own class. (see CFR 20). USPN does not oversee the classes unlike say the French System... see F104).

The A class rules are a box formula. As long as you are within them you can be classified as an A. Technically the Hobie Wave measures in and could if they wanted to be sold as an A class and be raced heads up.

This is obviously not going to happen, and anyone actually looking to get into the A class should have enough buyers education to be able to recognize the difference.

A boat at 200 lbs though is something that given the right price would be a perfect intro boat. There are a lot of people who do not have the skills to be able to tell the difference and a less expensive into boat lets them play the game.

Too many people seem to be getting wrapped up on this weight issue - weight of the crew, weight of the boat. Yes it makes a difference, but is way down on the list of things that make you go faster than the next guy or make sailing fun. Back in the hey day of cat sailing when 100 plus boats would show up for a local race no one seemed to care much and I know there was upwards of 30 lb differences in weights between some of the H16's in our club. Now peoepl are getting all bent over whether a boat that is over weight by 5 lbs can still be called by its class name, and we struggle to get 10 boats to the line. Is there a connection here......Hmmmmm??? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

A competitve A class boat is expensive due to both materials and the labor that goes into it. The class is open though, so if you feel you can do it your self, everyone will welcome your boat in the fleet (even if it weights 166 lbs)

Perhaps you overlook the skill level within the pecking order in a fleet.

In any fleet, a pecking order based on skill level is established. Your point that boat and crew weight factors are small compared to the skill level is true for the entire fleet.

The reason "too many people worry about weight" is that they are NOT racing the whole fleet.... they actually are racing the sailors within their region of the pecking order... In this micro race... boat weight and crew weight are very important to success in the micro race. The sailing skill differences within this region of the pecking order is really small.. Boat Weight and crew weight are much more significant to finish position. (This is why you bet the farm that Asby, Guck and Melvin are sailing boats that are absolutely at Min weight and as stiff as possible.)

IMO, that is why you have the "too many people worry about weight" situation. They see the weight effect every light air down wind leg!

Your example from back in the day... actually proves my point. with 100 boats on the line... the number of sailors in your skill level of the pecking order is much larger.... the effect of boat weight on finish position within this much larger micro race is now much less signficiant. Sail well and you finish 20 points higher in the pecking order! You forget about the 30 lb difference then...It did not SEEM to matter... even though it is significant.

I can't see how building a new 200 lb A Class for entry level racers will grow participation. Having a good market for quality used boats on the other hand does solve a good deal of the problem. (the new racer now only has the skill set and their body weight to worry about in moving up the pecking order.

It is much easier to grow the class by saying... Ah... what you want is a 2002 or later Boyer to be competitive... OR to a new A cat racer... You know... that Boyer mark 4 does not have the current hull shape but unless you plan on the nationals... It's a great starter boat and it's on weight and they hold up well and retain their value. Much better for the class IMO.

Sounds like a loser to me. I don't see a market for slower A cats. "For a few thousand less you can have this slower model"...I don't think so. Budget minded entry level buyers will buy a used boat.

Mark,

You do have a point about the Portsmouth rating and I can see how that might generate a little confusion. However, examining the "chicken or the egg" scenario with a boat class and a portsmouth rating, the boat class certainly comes first. By that I mean, it's up to the Portsmouth committee to dish out the ratings and if there is a boat like this within a class that has some clear distinction of difference and the potential to negatively affect the portsmouth rating, a different rating will be created to isolate the issue. Portsmouth ratings are here to support boat classes - not the other way around.

USPN can most certainly regulate these issues - there have been considerable accomodations made for the F16 class to combine the uni and double handed ratings at the request of the class (because, based on the present data, combining of them did not present an advantage for the single handed version).

So I'm a bit confused (not necessarily definitive of all of us here on the plains)

Listed under active Multihull classes

A Class Cat A-C 64.5
A Class Cat >200# all-up A-C2 70.5

Is this an oversight? Should the A-C2 rating have been removed? Or, are there 200# A's racing somewhere?

I understand opposition to another wieght/class of A and liken this to proponents of a H16 spin class in the US, why split the fleet? But the common perception of A's are they're too fragile (maybe a mis-conception?) and too expensive (pick your favorite order). If there were vinylester/aluminum/dacron, or other non "exotic" materialed boats that weighed 200#(91kg) available, would that not enhance the class by drawing those that may be on the fence to buy this boat? Or, are the costs of building new so close that these materials don't represent a significant cost savings?

It would fall into A-c2 - and yes, there still are A-c2's racing. I think Mark's point is that it's not "really" an a-cat if it weighs 200 pounds and I tend to agree with him.