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Re: Changing the stays or trap wires [Re: Timbo] #149492
07/27/08 03:35 PM
07/27/08 03:35 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 571
Hamburg
Smiths_Cat Offline
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Smiths_Cat  Offline
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Hamburg
Hi Timbo,

I didn't calc the weight benefit. In theory dyneema is 7 times lighter than wire. However I don't believe that such a small improvment will improve the performance of the boat. I gave a guestimate about the drag some postings before, it is neglectable as well.
The main benefit of dyneema is cost. I would pay nearly 50%-75% more for wire including swaging and a plastic cover to protect the sail.

After another day with light wind (in the morning) and strong wind (in the afternoon). I think I will invest in wire. In light winds, it was fine. For strong winds and waves it is not stiff enough in my opinion.

Waynemarlow,

Agreed that the leeward sidestay will be slack. But the leeward forstay (if you have one) should not.

Cheers,

Klaus

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Re: Changing the stays or trap wires [Re: Timbo] #149493
07/27/08 06:29 PM
07/27/08 06:29 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe

Simple answer is.

Use wire for the stays and diamonds, synthetic line is just practical here/

But use lines for the trap-lines. There is absolutely no reason not the use line here. Cheaper, lighter, simpler, less wear on the batten pockets and safer (can be cut in emergency)

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Changing the stays or trap wires [Re: Smiths_Cat] #149494
07/27/08 06:42 PM
07/27/08 06:42 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 502
Port Noarlunga, SA, Australia
D
Darryn Offline
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Darryn  Offline
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Port Noarlunga, SA, Australia
Quote


a plastic cover to protect the sail.



Sticky back sailcoth on the batten pockets where the stay rubs works fine for this, replace when it gets worn through which is every year or so for me.

Elasticity in side stays while sailing is just wrong, might as well go back to cotton sails.

Darryn
Mozzie
1782

Re: Changing the stays or trap wires [Re: Timbo] #149495
07/28/08 06:09 AM
07/28/08 06:09 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 893
W
waynemarlow Offline
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waynemarlow  Offline
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Posts: 893
For me it was largely being able to set up my own shroud lengths easily and simply without having to constantly go to a chandler to adjust the stays, cost and weight was not really the issue, as an aside I lost nearly 3 kilos ( including the adjusters ) and had nice soft stays which didn't damage sails nor hands.

It would be interesting to go back to wire for a while and probably see what others are confirming that the D12 is just too elastic or perhaps not. Coming from a gliding background where there was some argument whether stiff platforms were better than flexiable ( basically the flexiable platforms took out all the shock and jolting allowing the pilot to thermal better vs the flexiable wings didn't allow the wing to perform as it should ). I guess trial and error maybe the answer. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Re: Changing the stays or trap wires [Re: Darryn] #149496
07/28/08 09:15 AM
07/28/08 09:15 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 322
South Australia
Marcus F16 Offline
enthusiast
Marcus F16  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 322
South Australia
Quote
Sticky back sailcoth on the batten pockets where the stay rubs works fine for this, replace when it gets worn through which is every year or so for me.


The 3M gunnal non slip is also good for protecting the batten pockets & last quiet a few years


Marcus Towell

Formula Catamarans Aust Pty Ltd
Re: Changing the stays or trap wires [Re: Marcus F16] #149497
07/31/08 07:44 AM
07/31/08 07:44 AM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 186
Chattanooga, TN
jody Offline OP
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jody  Offline OP
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Posts: 186
Chattanooga, TN
I talked to Mike Krantz at Layline, and he felt that line for the traps was OK (his word) but that for the stays unless you go with the carbon stuff ($$$$) then he felt there is just to much creep. I have to believe that he would know since he could use any line he wanted on his F18 or A cat and still has wire on them. So for now think will stick with wire.

Jody


Jody Blade F16 724 Plays with Sharp Objects
Re: Changing the stays or trap wires [Re: jody] #149498
07/31/08 08:33 AM
07/31/08 08:33 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Timbo  Offline
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Sebring, Florida.
My concern is not about the small amount of weight you save, but the amount of wind drag you add by going from skinny wires to fatter line, and then add the risk of creep, and the risk of failure if something sharp rubs up against it. You would have to be constantly checking them for wear and nicks, etc. I would think.

I like the lower maintenance of wire because I leave my mast up most of the time. If I were keeping the boat on a trailor with the mast down and all stays coiled neatly in the box, maybe I wouldn't worry about using line instead of wire. Of course I could stop drinking beer and I would lose more weight than by switching to line too. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />


Blade F16
#777
Re: Changing the stays or trap wires [Re: Timbo] #149499
07/31/08 08:40 AM
07/31/08 08:40 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

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West coast of Norway
Klaus had calculated the extra drag to be a 2% increase. He made some posts about this early in the thread.

Re: Changing the stays or trap wires [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #149500
07/31/08 08:49 AM
07/31/08 08:49 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Timbo  Offline
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Sebring, Florida.
Well, it's a small increase but an increase anyway, and if it's blowing 20, going upwind, I'd rather not have any increase in drag up there. I count 3 stays plus 4 trap lines, so there are 7 fatter lines vs. 7 skinny wires.


Blade F16
#777
Re: Changing the stays or trap wires [Re: Timbo] #149501
07/31/08 02:01 PM
07/31/08 02:01 PM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 186
Chattanooga, TN
jody Offline OP
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jody  Offline OP
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Posts: 186
Chattanooga, TN
My origanl reason for the line over wire was just easy of storage as we have to travel to all the regattas, but at the expense of creep and worse preformance I can handicap myself there with stupid stuff, so will have one less beer, and keep the wire for now.


Jody Blade F16 724 Plays with Sharp Objects
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