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by Frank N. 05/04/22 07:38 PM
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Re: One for Rolf... [Re: bvining] #152564
08/15/08 06:52 AM
08/15/08 06:52 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
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Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
This years Texel race have been run, and next year I will be coming to terms with my F16. 2-4 years I would hope.

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: One for Rolf... [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #152565
08/15/08 09:47 AM
08/15/08 09:47 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 778
Houston
carlbohannon Offline
old hand
carlbohannon  Offline
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Posts: 778
Houston
Quote
How do you know that Carl?
Everybody but the Laser sailors brings their own boats as far as I know, even the winsurfers, and I dont know how the Lasers are financed.


You are right, I don't know what the current IOC thinking is however, in 2004 or 2005 the Laser was IOC's model for the future of Olympic sailing. Since then they have made the Laser Radial the women's single hand dinghy.

The reasons are complicated and I don't understand the politics enough to explain it. It seems to spiral out from the fact that the IOC doesn't like equipment issues. It make the poor but, full voting members, feel they don't have a chance.

Also there is the IOC emphasis on the athlete (young and photogenic). Equipment sports tend to favor the older, more experienced, obsessive, etc. The more variation permitted in the equipment, the more it tends to favor the older, more experienced, obsessive, etc.

Re: One for Rolf... [Re: carlbohannon] #152566
08/15/08 09:08 PM
08/15/08 09:08 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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Luiz  Offline
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Asuncion, Paraguay
Quote

...the IOC doesn't like equipment issues. It make the poor, but full voting, members feel they don't have a chance.


There is a number of elite sports in the Olympics and they are very easy to spot: just look for kings and royals in their federations. Since elite sports are politically incorrect (but in kingdoms) and sports are becoming more and more important as a politic tool, their federations feel the need to make them look popular in order to keep the olympic status while the same elite holds effective control.

I see the Laser and Windsurf as smoke curtains. If the move towards popular boats was honest, the Finn would have been excluded long ago, the 49er would have replaced the 470 instead of joined it, the Hobie 16 would have been the Olympic multihull, the keelboat wouldn't remain Olympic and kites would be at least in the pipeline.

That said, expensive equipment effectively cap the chances of poor countries.


Luiz
Re: One for Rolf... [Re: Luiz] #152567
08/15/08 11:31 PM
08/15/08 11:31 PM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
Pooh-Bah
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Melbourne, Australia
If the VX20 or M20 is selected, it will put the boats a step further away from aspiring sailors. Atleast at the moment the Tornado is a platform with long longlivety and there are a lot of them on the second hand market.

The M20 platform will also have a long life span but there are very few on the second hand market. Those who are in the position to buy new will also hang onto the boats for a long time like we are seeing with the T's. It would be great to see a more modern platform but will not be realistic to those cash limited sailors looking to enter the class. The Tornado platform may also be old and look out of date, but it is in another league to any other cat I have sailed (have not sialed an M20)..... So the hull shape may be old but still VERY effective.


Re: One for Rolf... [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #152568
08/16/08 03:55 AM
08/16/08 03:55 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
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West coast of Norway
Quote
There is a number of elite sports in the Olympics and they are very easy to spot: just look for kings and royals in their federations. Since elite sports are politically incorrect (but in kingdoms) and sports are becoming more and more important as a politic tool, their federations feel the need to make them look popular in order to keep the olympic status while the same elite holds effective control.


Saying stuff like that is a good way to get up any common norwegians nose. In sailing King Harald and King Constantine are non voting honorary members of the executive committee. In government our king dont have much power over the running of his government. He means a lot for sailing here and supports the sport greatly. He and his father both sailed a lot at a very high level. He is also very popular and supported by the people, far more than our politicians.
For you to mix him, sailing and low down politics/nationalism can only be excused by lack of knowlegde.


Quote
I see the Laser and Windsurf as smoke curtains. If the move towards popular boats was honest, the Finn would have been excluded long ago, the 49er would have replaced the 470 instead of joined it, the Hobie 16 would have been the Olympic multihull, the keelboat wouldn't remain Olympic and kites would be at least in the pipeline.


Boats and classes are not all alike. That is for sure.

Quote
That said, expensive equipment effectively cap the chances of poor countries.


It would be well documented and understood by now that the equipment cost is not what stops poor countries from competing at the highest level. It is the logistics, starting fees and travelling costs that makes it expensive. So what is your reasoning behind that statement?


[qoute]The Tornado platform may also be old and look out of date, but it is in another league to any other cat I have sailed (have not sialed an M20)..... So the hull shape may be old but still VERY effective. [/quote]

The platform have been tweaked as good as possible within the class rules, and the class rules have been changed somewhat over the years to make the boat faster. I.e. like lowering the min. weight. What makes the boat fast today is the power plant/rig and excellent stiffness. The hulls and centerboards are not as fast as the shapes we have available today. With the most skilled sailors in the world sailing a boat, that boat will be fast anyway. But that is "just" a technical matter. The politics of getting a multihull back into the games are by far more important.

Re: One for Rolf... [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #152569
08/16/08 04:40 AM
08/16/08 04:40 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
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Yes the T rig is very potent, the platform is not at the cutting edge but is "still VERY effective"

The construction methods used in the platform have improved but the hull shape is still the same as when it was first designed..... These rules have not changed.

Come on now Rolf, I would have thought you would agree that there are very few boats that are as satisfying as sending a T down the course on a big downwind.

Yes the M20 / VX20 may be a better platform, but as I said above, I believe it will be a setback to multihulls if it made it to the Olympics. The T is a much better choice.

How many VX20s would you imagine we will see at Olympic Class regatta's around the world if it was selected, such as Sail Melbourne, Sail Auckland, Miami.... I know we do not see many Tornadoes at these events and at times have years where they do not make a showing, but if the VX20 was selected, I highly doubt you will see a multihull back at these events. How many hopefulls will be runing around on these platforms???


Re: One for Rolf... [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #152570
08/16/08 04:57 AM
08/16/08 04:57 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
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West coast of Norway
Oh yes, I would like to see the T keep its olympic status. It s a very good boat for the games and keeping it would not ruin any other classes. I do think that have become politically impossible over the last six months the way things have played out though.

I dont think the M20 design is something special. Construction yes, but not the design itself. I think we will see the Hobie Tiger as the next olympic multihull (if we manage to get back in the games in 2016) for the reasons I outlined in the start of the thread.

Quote
I was thinking the Hobie Tiger, if there is to be a olympic multihull again. My reasoning is from reading the selection criteria years ago and the following:

It must be a ISAF international class.
It must have double trapeeze and spi
It must be a OD class
It must look flashy and modern


Now that Hobie Europe is launching a new F18, it makes even more (political) sense that the Tiger gets the nod. Especially if Hobe throws some money after ISAF like providing boats for the games.
Personally what I would like is a wholly new OD class with multiple manufacturers and really stright class rules.
If it was the VX20 or the M20 who got the nod I dont think the number of participating boats at worlds, the "WC" etc. would drop a lot compared to today. Sure there are some weekend warriors who go to events, but look at the numbers when the T have gone outside catamaran heartland.
If we are to get back in the games we should forget about which boat and work with out MNAs to fortify multihulls there. AUS and NOR are both multihull supporters, but we can probably do more with our MNAs.

Re: One for Rolf... [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #152571
08/16/08 06:55 AM
08/16/08 06:55 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
Pooh-Bah
Tornado_ALIVE  Offline
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Melbourne, Australia
Quote
Oh yes, I would like to see the T keep its olympic status. It s a very good boat for the games and keeping it would not ruin any other classes. I do think that have become politically impossible over the last six months the way things have played out though.
Sadly I agree with you. If the big T does not get reinstated, I hope the class continues as a successful class. Perhaps, with affordable boats coming on the market, it will attract a new group of sailors who dreamed of owning Tornadoes.


Re: One for Rolf... [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #152572
08/16/08 05:04 PM
08/16/08 05:04 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 613
New Hampshire, USA
windswept Offline
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windswept  Offline
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New Hampshire, USA
Right now the Tornado is a good fit for the Olympics. I think that the Code 0 sail has brought un-needed complications to the class as far as its suitability to be an Olympic class. It is not the sail that I disagree with but the timing of this happening. With that said though, the Tornado fits the bill and other classes wont be disrupted by being chosen as an Olympic class. I still marvel at my tornado everytime I get on it and set it on a blazing reach. I like my A-Class but I love my Tornado. I think that as far as 2012 goes, it is now up to ISAF to petition the IOC for an eleventh event before going to the five disciplines approach in 2016. It seems that from a conversation that I had recently with an ISAF executive member that ISAF is considering petitioning IOC after the Olympics are over. If ISAF makes a true effort with this petition, which is not a given, then there is still a small chance that there will be a multihull event for 2012.


Tom Siders
A-Cat USA-79
Tornado US775
Re: One for Rolf... [Re: windswept] #152573
08/16/08 06:52 PM
08/16/08 06:52 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 805
Gainesville, FL 32607 USA
dacarls Offline
old hand
dacarls  Offline
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Posts: 805
Gainesville, FL 32607 USA
The unmentioned large grey mammal in this thread (elephant) is, for most sailors, the 10 foot width of the T. Are these real suggestions that no modern materials should be employed in such a universally accepted cat?
Also- We appear to exist in a down-sized, energy-deprived century, do we not? Who will be driving 6 mile per gallon F-350 diesel Ford trucks to the beach? Start planning for the future, people!


Dacarls:
A-class USA 196, USA 21, H18, H16
"Nothing that's any good works by itself. You got to make the damn thing work"- Thomas Edison
Re: One for Rolf... [Re: dacarls] #152574
08/16/08 08:19 PM
08/16/08 08:19 PM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
Pooh-Bah
Tornado_ALIVE  Offline
Pooh-Bah

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Melbourne, Australia
The 10 foot beam only seems to be an issue for those who do not or have never sailed a Tornado. Tornado sailors past and present generally do not have a problem with the beam off the water. ..... It really is not that big a deal.

On the water however, the 10 foot beam is what makes the boat. Once you sail a 10 foot boat, you donít want to go back.


Re: One for Rolf... [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #152575
08/17/08 08:50 AM
08/17/08 08:50 AM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 613
New Hampshire, USA
windswept Offline
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windswept  Offline
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Posts: 613
New Hampshire, USA
The 10' beam on the boat makes it an issue for trailering which has definately turned many sailors off. We had a strong fleet in NE at one ppoint. When we lost our storage lot accross from Quincy Bay at the Hingham Yacht club, that is when the fleet slowly fell apart. The having to re-rig the boat between each sail was something that most did not want to deal with. I only rig my Tornado now when I have a place to leave it set-up for more than one day. For me a tilt trailer would definately solve the issue. But on the water, the 10' beam truly is great.


Tom Siders
A-Cat USA-79
Tornado US775
Re: One for Rolf... [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #152576
08/18/08 01:45 PM
08/18/08 01:45 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
veteran
Luiz  Offline
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Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Quote
In sailing King Harald and King Constantine are non voting honorary members of the executive committee. In government our king dont have much power over the running of his government. He means a lot for sailing here and supports the sport greatly. He and his father both sailed a lot at a very high level. He is also very popular and supported by the people, far more than our politicians.
For you to mix him, sailing and low down politics/nationalism can only be excused by lack of knowlegde.

Rolf,

I fully understand you and have nothing against kings, queens and their families, especially the Norwegian royal family. I happen to know a few of them and can personally confirm that they deserve the people's confidence. Their support is important for sailing even in Brazil: one of the most traditional regattas in Rio is King Olav's regatta in november.

Please don't take the fact that elite sports can be spotted by the presence of kings/queens in their federations to imply anything else.


Luiz
Re: One for Rolf... [Re: windswept] #152577
08/19/08 01:14 AM
08/19/08 01:14 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
Pooh-Bah
Tornado_ALIVE  Offline
Pooh-Bah

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Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Quote
For me a tilt trailer would definately solve the issue.


Yeah my coments were based on if you have a tilt trailer. A bit more work to assemble platforms if you don't have one.


Re: One for Rolf... [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #152578
08/19/08 01:25 AM
08/19/08 01:25 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Quote
Quote
For me a tilt trailer would definately solve the issue.


Yeah my coments were based on if you have a tilt trailer. A bit more work to assemble platforms if you don't have one.


The only way to get a lot of hours on the water is to have the boat at a club or at the local waterfront. Hours on the water is in my opinion the only way to become fast. So to train efficiently you need to have the boat ready to go, just hoist the mainsail and get on the water. It dont matter if the boat is 10 or 8 feet wide if it is at the club?

Is it just multis that are trailer sailed in Aus and US, or is this the way it is for most dinghys as well?

I just can not imagine trailer sailing any boat, would take so much more time. Now it looks like they are building a small boat harbour just 5 minutes (literally) from our house, and I have already flagged my interest of keeping a cat there. Looks like it will happen as well as it is one more member to pay dues and be part of the community works.

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