Announcements
New Discussions
Hull pressurizing
by DaleYoung. 06/14/22 08:16 PM
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Quoted from SA #153225
08/23/08 01:50 AM
08/23/08 01:50 AM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline OP
veteran
Luiz  Offline OP
veteran

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Quote


Two weeks of dull, lifeless Qingdao sailing was punctuated by some intensely hot action this morning, as the Stars and Tornados sailed their medal races in 15-20 knots of breeze; similar conditions to those that wrecked the 49er fleet just a couple days ago...
.
The Tornado handled the chop and breeze as gracefully as they always do, ripping around at almost 20 knots in total control, only one boat capsizing despite the nasty waves...
.
...When the Stars came out and reached around during their pre-start, it almost seemed a joke to the spectators. It's hard to go from watching Tornados scream around at 18 knots to watching Stars plod through the waves at 6, but the brutal battle playing out between Scheidt, Loof, and Percy made it easy to forget about the Star's antiquity and sluggishness...



Luiz
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Quoted from SA [Re: Luiz] #153226
08/24/08 09:58 PM
08/24/08 09:58 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 25
J
Jbarth13 Offline
newbie
Jbarth13  Offline
newbie
J

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 25
Good ol' Tornados. We've gotta get Cats back in the Games.

Re: Quoted from SA [Re: Jbarth13] #153227
08/25/08 03:30 AM
08/25/08 03:30 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
scooby_simon  Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
Quote
Good ol' Tornados. We've gotta get Cats back in the Games.


Some people are working very hard to try and make this happen.


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: Quoted from SA [Re: scooby_simon] #153228
08/25/08 09:35 AM
08/25/08 09:35 AM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 613
New Hampshire, USA
windswept Offline
addict
windswept  Offline
addict

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 613
New Hampshire, USA
Now that the Olympics are over I believe that you will see ISAF filing a petition to the IOC for an eleventh event at Weymouth.


Tom Siders
A-Cat USA-79
Tornado US775
Re: Quoted from SA [Re: windswept] #153229
08/25/08 12:23 PM
08/25/08 12:23 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 921
Alachua, FL
Mugrace72 Offline
old hand
Mugrace72  Offline
old hand

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 921
Alachua, FL
Quote
I believe that you will see ISAF filing a petition to the IOC for an eleventh event at Weymouth.


If that fails:

I think the host country has a certain number of add-on events at their descretion.

The question iswill it be darts, cricket, or Tornados?


Jack Woehrle
Hobie Wave #100, Tiger Shark III
HCA-NA 5022-1
USSailing 654799E
Alachua FL/Put-In-Bay
Re: Quoted from SA [Re: Mugrace72] #153230
08/25/08 12:31 PM
08/25/08 12:31 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,584
+31NL
Tony_F18 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Tony_F18  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,584
+31NL
Or Snooker...

Re: Quoted from SA [Re: Tony_F18] #153231
08/25/08 01:22 PM
08/25/08 01:22 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,582
“an island in the Pacific....
hobie1616 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
hobie1616  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,582
“an island in the Pacific....
Elbow Bending At The Local.


US Sail Level 2 Instructor
US Sail Level 3 Coach
Re: Quoted from SA [Re: hobie1616] #153232
08/25/08 01:53 PM
08/25/08 01:53 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
Quote
Elbow Bending At The Local.


SWEET - so I could be an Olympian after all!

How will they designate classes? Gender or how fat my postieror is?


Jay

Re: Quoted from SA [Re: waterbug_wpb] #153233
08/25/08 01:55 PM
08/25/08 01:55 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 613
New Hampshire, USA
windswept Offline
addict
windswept  Offline
addict

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 613
New Hampshire, USA
The issue that needs to be addressed is not the equipment, but the addition of an eleventh event. Until that happens, equipment is not an issue.


Tom Siders
A-Cat USA-79
Tornado US775
Re: Quoted from SA [Re: windswept] #153234
08/25/08 02:06 PM
08/25/08 02:06 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Tom

don't you think that the appeal to the IOC for an extra sport will necessarily be pitched as a catamaran event.

Consequently, I think that the multihull world can't aford a pissing contest on equipment selection while also trying to get a new class onboard with an Olympic schedule.

The only class organized and committed to Olympic is the Tornado. They have ousted Mike G already and Carolyn B is a nice pretty and FEMALE face. Seems to me that the Tornado and its new leadership is the only hope for a return from the dead in London 2008.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Quoted from SA [Re: Mark Schneider] #153235
08/25/08 02:12 PM
08/25/08 02:12 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 921
Alachua, FL
Mugrace72 Offline
old hand
Mugrace72  Offline
old hand

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 921
Alachua, FL
Quote
Seems to me that the Tornado and its new leadership is the only hope for a return from the dead in London 2008.


Tornado or nothing for now. No value in confusing the issue at hand.


Jack Woehrle
Hobie Wave #100, Tiger Shark III
HCA-NA 5022-1
USSailing 654799E
Alachua FL/Put-In-Bay
Re: Quoted from SA [Re: Mark Schneider] #153236
08/25/08 04:57 PM
08/25/08 04:57 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 613
New Hampshire, USA
windswept Offline
addict
windswept  Offline
addict

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 613
New Hampshire, USA
Mark,

I agree with the fact that the Tornado is the class to choose right now. As far as the petition goes, it is my understanding that it is specifically to address the removal of multihulls as a discipline from the olympics.


Tom Siders
A-Cat USA-79
Tornado US775
Re: Quoted from SA [Re: windswept] #153237
08/26/08 10:51 AM
08/26/08 10:51 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 893
W
waynemarlow Offline
old hand
waynemarlow  Offline
old hand
W

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 893
Now guys and girls the only way you are going to get a cat back into the olympics in this PC orientated world of ours is to, well go PC. Now PC states that boys and girls are equals so in reality there is only one cat class that is already set up, has multiple builders and costs way less than a Tornado and where a "brace" ( thats a boy and a girl to the uninformed ) can compete on equal grounds. Now which formulae class can that be I wonder. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Re: Quoted from SA [Re: waynemarlow] #153238
08/26/08 12:08 PM
08/26/08 12:08 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
Tornado would be the most straightforward arrangement after the debacle that we're in.

Where does the requirement come in that multiple builders are required? Does multiple locations throughout the world count?

Mike

Re: Quoted from SA [Re: waynemarlow] #153239
08/27/08 02:50 PM
08/27/08 02:50 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
Quote
Now which formulae class can that be I wonder. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Are there any true "formulae" classes of boats in the olympics currently? I thought they were all one-designs, except for maybe the windsurfers...

Which sort of goes back to the whole problem with "locking in" a certain configuration within a Formulae class to avoid people showing up with foils, Chupacabras or Whompers and destroying the competition.


Jay

Re: Quoted from SA [Re: waterbug_wpb] #153240
08/27/08 07:18 PM
08/27/08 07:18 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe

Quote

showing up with foils, Chupacabras or Whompers and destroying the competition.



Last time I checked the Chupacabra destroyed the medal chances of the owning crew, not the competition.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Quoted from SA [Re: Wouter] #153241
08/28/08 09:36 AM
08/28/08 09:36 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
Correct, but I was thinking more of something else that would trounce future competition. We've seen these items show up at oportune times to try to get a technological edge, and that's what Formulae racing allows.

So unless you "freeze" a certain platform within a development class, you'd most likely end up with dissimilar boats on the start line, which would be the source of all kinds of controversy

Freezing a certain platform design within a formulae class further fractures the development class into "olympic" and "non-olympic" groups, which then may force DPN rating changes and PHRF style handicaps which never truley level the field.

Am I off base here?


Jay

Re: Quoted from SA [Re: waterbug_wpb] #153242
08/28/08 09:12 PM
08/28/08 09:12 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline OP
veteran
Luiz  Offline OP
veteran

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Quote
...I was thinking more of something else that would trounce future competition. We've seen these items show up at oportune times to try to get a technological edge, and that's what Formulae racing allows.

So unless you "freeze" a certain platform within a development class, you'd most likely end up with dissimilar boats on the start line, which would be the source of all kinds of controversy

Am I off base here?


Strict one design equipment is an attempt to equalize the sailing environment so the competition is more about the athletes and less about other variables. The problem is: one design humans are rare. Any fixed equipment will favor those who better match the equipment's requirements. Think ideal weight, height, age, technical skill, flexibility, etc. This contributes to the development of a tight range of sailors who happen to adapt well to said requirements, but contributes nothing to the development of the sport itself - and still lives many variables opened.

I would compare this to an equestrian event where only horses cloned from a "one design horse" would be allowed. Horses (like boats!) have a character and behave different with different people. In the end, the ideal athlete would be genetically modified to match the cloned horse's features - and then, why not? - that rider would be cloned as well!

It makes more sense to allow enough space within the equipment rules to adapt the boat to the diversity of physical, technical and tactical characteristics displayed by humans. This is the type of amplitude that allowed Paul Elvstrom to finish 4th in a Tornado Olympics when he was about 60.

For me the concept of strict one design equipment is associated to a futile search for an "ideal" sailor with pre-conceived ideas about how he should be, think and, very important, what type of sailing he should like. I believe all types of athletes have a place in the Olympics, old, young, heavy, light, tall, short, handicapped, etc. Sailing is one of the few sports suitable for a really wide range of people/athletes. Taking advantage of this would be the natural thing to do.

All the best,


Luiz
Re: Quoted from SA [Re: Luiz] #153243
08/29/08 02:54 AM
08/29/08 02:54 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
scooby_simon  Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
Quote
Quote
...I was thinking more of something else that would trounce future competition. We've seen these items show up at oportune times to try to get a technological edge, and that's what Formulae racing allows.

So unless you "freeze" a certain platform within a development class, you'd most likely end up with dissimilar boats on the start line, which would be the source of all kinds of controversy

Am I off base here?


Strict one design equipment is an attempt to equalize the sailing environment so the competition is more about the athletes and less about other variables. The problem is: one design humans are rare. Any fixed equipment will favor those who better match the equipment's requirements. Think ideal weight, height, age, technical skill, flexibility, etc. This contributes to the development of a tight range of sailors who happen to adapt well to said requirements, but contributes nothing to the development of the sport itself - and still lives many variables opened.

I would compare this to an equestrian event where only horses cloned from a "one design horse" would be allowed. Horses (like boats!) have a character and behave different with different people. In the end, the ideal athlete would be genetically modified to match the cloned horse's features - and then, why not? - that rider would be cloned as well!

It makes more sense to allow enough space within the equipment rules to adapt the boat to the diversity of physical, technical and tactical characteristics displayed by humans. This is the type of amplitude that allowed Paul Elvstrom to finish 4th in a Tornado Olympics when he was about 60.

For me the concept of strict one design equipment is associated to a futile search for an "ideal" sailor with pre-conceived ideas about how he should be, think and, very important, what type of sailing he should like. I believe all types of athletes have a place in the Olympics, old, young, heavy, light, tall, short, handicapped, etc. Sailing is one of the few sports suitable for a really wide range of people/athletes. Taking advantage of this would be the natural thing to do.

All the best,


And the other problem is that those at the top THINK that one design boats are cheaper, but they are not (Much). With my involvement with Nicj Dewhirst and the rest of the people trying to get the Catamaran back into the Ollies, we know how many lasers the teams go thru as they only stay "sweet" for a very short period of time. It's a silly game played by people who are so out-of-touch with sailing that it makes me want to scream, but we have to play it by their rules....... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: Quoted from SA [Re: scooby_simon] #153244
08/29/08 09:11 AM
08/29/08 09:11 AM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 613
New Hampshire, USA
windswept Offline
addict
windswept  Offline
addict

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 613
New Hampshire, USA
Quote

And the other problem is that those at the top THINK that one design boats are cheaper, but they are not (Much). With my involvement with Nicj Dewhirst and the rest of the people trying to get the Catamaran back into the Ollies, we know how many lasers the teams go thru as they only stay "sweet" for a very short period of time. It's a silly game played by people who are so out-of-touch with sailing that it makes me want to scream, but we have to play it by their rules....... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

This is a difficult issue for many to understand. A Tornado can remain at a competitive peak for an 8-12 year time frame. The 12 year is pushing it and you are rebuilding the boat by replacing the beams and even reseating them. A laser may have a life span of 1-2 years during an intensive campaign. Has anyone ever been to a sorting party for lasers? This is were you look at 20-40 different hulls, and about 100 different masts, sails, rudders, daggerboards and so on. The variation between each peice of equipment is so great that the best sailors are looking for the best equipment. One of the reasons that Marstrom became the dominant builder in this class was that his boats were better constructed and faster platforms. Over time this became the standard in the class. It is a shame because when I first started sailing T's Reg White was the boat. There are a lot of people who chime in on this debate without a complete understanding of all of the resounding issues. I applaud Nick for all that he and you UKCRA members have done on behalf of multihulls and the Olympics. The initial IOC petition that Nick sent has helped to get this back on the board with ISAF. IT is too early to tell whether this will end in an 11th event for 2012 or just the switch to a five disciplines approach for 2016.

Attached Files

Tom Siders
A-Cat USA-79
Tornado US775
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Damon Linkous 

Search

Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 21 guests, and 94 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
toomanyhulls, madina9900, johngava, badcatsailor, wehnet
8119 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics22,397
Posts267,040
Members8,119
Most Online1,650
Sep 10th, 2019
--Advertisement--
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1