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Spinnaker Attachment Point #157720
10/20/08 02:36 PM
10/20/08 02:36 PM
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ButchG Offline OP
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I read in another post that the Spin mast attachment point
should be 26.5 ft from the mast base. In the attached pic
which point should be 26.5ft from the base? The Cheek Block (A)
or the Spin Bale (B)?

This is for a P19 and I'm mounting an F18 Spin Setup.


Attached Files

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."


ButchG
Prindle 19 w/Spi
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Spinnaker Attachment Point [Re: ButchG] #157729
10/20/08 03:14 PM
10/20/08 03:14 PM

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Scarecrow
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B.

Re: Spinnaker Attachment Point [Re: ] #157760
10/20/08 06:53 PM
10/20/08 06:53 PM
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ButchG Offline OP
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Thanks


"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."


ButchG
Prindle 19 w/Spi
Re: Spinnaker Attachment Point [Re: ButchG] #157767
10/20/08 08:09 PM
10/20/08 08:09 PM
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Michigan
PTP Offline
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if I might add an opinion...
forget the SS bale and cheek block. Wrap a high tech line around the mast at the level of the bale and tie off each end in a small hole in the sail track (forward, so as to not mess with the luff rope). before tying it off, put a small block (29mm harken carbo block) on the line with the line running through the center of the block. Tie the top of the block to a pig tail from an eye higher up the mast.
This eliminates the SS bale and decreases weight.
Of course you may have only been showing that picture as a reference point and plan on doing it this way anyway.

Last edited by PTP; 10/20/08 08:18 PM.
Re: Spinnaker Attachment Point [Re: PTP] #157776
10/20/08 11:49 PM
10/20/08 11:49 PM
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ButchG Offline OP
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The simplicity and neatness of the above arrangement far out
weighs the 12oz in weight savings a line setup gives.

IMO

Besides...it appeals to my anal retentive side wink


"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."


ButchG
Prindle 19 w/Spi
Re: Spinnaker Attachment Point [Re: ButchG] #157781
10/21/08 01:23 AM
10/21/08 01:23 AM

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Butch your anal retentive side has retention issues.

The system you have shown has fallen out of favour for two reasons.

1. Weight.
2. Its not uncommon for the sail and/or knot to get pulled through the bale. On a good day this effects the sail shape of the kite. On a bad day it makes it difficult/impossible to drop the kite.

Use PTP's system with a small Karver block.

Re: Spinnaker Attachment Point [Re: ] #157782
10/21/08 01:59 AM
10/21/08 01:59 AM
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ButchG Offline OP
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Quote
Butch your anal retentive side has retention issues.

A truer statement was never uttered...just ask my wife laugh

Quote
1. Weight


12oz, even on a 30 ft moment arm, is not enough to make much
difference on a 17yr old P19.

Quote
2. Its not uncommon for the sail and/or knot to get pulled through the bale. On a good day this effects the sail shape of the kite. On a bad day it makes it difficult/impossible to drop the kite.


By shaping and mounting the bale on the mast to give line clearance,
and threading a teflon or plastic ball on the halyard will prevent
that. The ball will stop the line at the correct point and still be
fluid enough to allow the clew to shift on gybes.


"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."


ButchG
Prindle 19 w/Spi
Re: Spinnaker Attachment Point [Re: ButchG] #157787
10/21/08 03:13 AM
10/21/08 03:13 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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[quote]
The simplicity and neatness of the above arrangement far out
weighs the 12oz in weight savings a line setup gives.
[quote]


Having 6 more blind rivets (holes) in the top of your mast of which each can allow water inside the mast I do believe the bail setup has serious issues.

The proposed alternative has no additional holes in the top of the mast; it is also simple to make by an amateur for about 20 bucks.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Spinnaker Attachment Point [Re: Wouter] #157807
10/21/08 09:34 AM
10/21/08 09:34 AM

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andrewscott
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ButchG DO IT - or - You must extinguish your torch and leave at once! - The Sailing Council has spoken! (kidding)

Re: Spinnaker Attachment Point [Re: Wouter] #157810
10/21/08 09:55 AM
10/21/08 09:55 AM
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ButchG Offline OP
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I'm doin it! I'm doin it! Extinguish my torch?!? NEVER! laugh


Quote
Having 6 more blind rivets (holes) in the top of your mast of which each can allow
water inside the mast I do believe the bail setup has serious issues.

Sealant, either RTV (a silicone type) or a 2-part (aviation type), properly applied will
eliminate that risk.

Quote
The proposed alternative has no additional holes in the top of the mast;

You will still have the two holes from the cheek block and either two or four holes in the curf.
While the holes in the curf aren't a leakage factor, I do think that they weaken the overall
rigidity of the mast. Another method I have seen in these forums is to loop a line around the
mast tip. That eliminates holes into the mast cavity and curf altogether.

smile Disclaimer: The following is my reasoning for going with the Infusion 18 type of arrangement
over the line type and is my opinion only, which is based on 30+ years in the aviation industry
dealing with aluminium structures and attachments/fittings. Please feel free to pick it apart.

At the risk of explaining something that everyone already knows, lets look at mast construction.
A plain, circular, aluminium tube has a fairly weak bending moment. Especially when your talking
about 30 foot lengths. Adding shape, teardrop or wing, greatly increases the fore and aft rigidity
but weakens the side load rigidity. To offset the loss of side load strength we add diamond wires.
Adding a curf creates a spine that further increases the fore and aft load rigidity. When we start
adding in prebend this curf becomes critically important in preventing tube folding.

There are four types of holes you can have in an aluminium structure. Unsupported; just a
plain hole, Strengthened; where the lip of the hole is partially bent inwards/outwards,
Partial Support; grommet type (like the grommets in a tramp) and Full Support; rivet type,
either pop or solid core. Unsupported being (by far) the weakest and Full Support only
marginally weaker than an unbroken surface.

The line configuration places unsupported holes in the mast curf which, I think, greatly
reduces the curfs ability to act as a spine. I have seen nothing in the forums to support
this (i.e. reports of masts breaking at the curf hole location) but it feels way wrong.

Both the Ball/Steel Bale and the Block/Line Bale configuration provide a positive stop for
consistent Spin Luff length, so that issue is a toss-up.

I think the steel bale offers a couple of advantages over the line bale. One is shape rigidity.
A steel bale maintains a constant, consistant, circular shape for an easier and more predictable
mast rotation during a gybe. The line bale will 'V' under load. I think that this would cause
line skip during a gybe and the luff line 'V' point would not be as consistant. Another advantage
is reduction of friction wear. With both types properly lubricated, I think the steel bale will
cause much less wear on the spin halyard as compared to the line on line setup. Less wear on the
spin halyard means I won't have to replace it as often as the line bale arrangement.

As I've stated, this is my opinion only, YM&OMV. Questions? Anyone? You there, in the back...

Last edited by ButchG; 10/21/08 09:58 AM.

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."


ButchG
Prindle 19 w/Spi
Re: Spinnaker Attachment Point [Re: ButchG] #157811
10/21/08 10:10 AM
10/21/08 10:10 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Just try it, you'll never go back.

With regard to holes in the sailtrack. These are not an issue structurally speaking. These holes are to small to be significant and are located in a place where the bending moments are very small compared to what the mast section is designed to with stand. Masts typically fail near the hound fitting or spreaders (when a diamond wire breaks); not anywhere near the bail. That should say enough.

As far as I know the vast majority of F18's using the line setup and no issues are associated with it. I have never replaced the line-bail in the 8 years I've been using this setup on two different boats (4+4 years). So wear is not an issue in my opinion.

Yes, I do loop around the mast top so I only have 2 small holes in teh sailtrack and that is it. Not cheakblock, just a free hanging block at the end of the vertical support line.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Spinnaker Attachment Point [Re: ButchG] #157815
10/21/08 10:48 AM
10/21/08 10:48 AM

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andrewscott
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Originally Posted by ButchG
I'm doin it! I'm doin it! Extinguish my torch?!? NEVER! laugh


HAHA... good sense of humor! lol...

Last edited by andrewscott; 10/21/08 10:48 AM.
Re: Spinnaker Attachment Point [Re: ButchG] #157822
10/21/08 11:08 AM
10/21/08 11:08 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
PTP Offline
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Originally Posted by ButchG
The simplicity and neatness of the above arrangement far out
weighs the 12oz in weight savings a line setup gives.

IMO

Besides...it appeals to my anal retentive side wink


I think using the line system is simpler than using the bale. Cheaper too.

Re: Spinnaker Attachment Point [Re: PTP] #157828
10/21/08 12:07 PM
10/21/08 12:07 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 70
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ButchG Offline OP
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Quote
I think using the line system is simpler than using the bale. Cheaper too.

I bought the boat last Saturday from a guy who said he bought it in '04 or '05, sailed it 3 times
and stuck it, under a cover, in a field behind the barn.

When I did an inventory of what was all in the storage box, hidden under some canvas I found a
humongous tackle box filled with treasure. In the bottom of that box I found a plastic bag with
a shopping and to-do list for mounting a spinnaker. Also in the bag, still sealed in their
plastic bags were the spin bale, cheek blocks, running blocks, cam cleats, pole caps and four
ratchomatic blocks.

So now you see why cost is not the issue laugh laugh


"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."


ButchG
Prindle 19 w/Spi
Re: Spinnaker Attachment Point [Re: PTP] #157832
10/21/08 12:15 PM
10/21/08 12:15 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,200
Vancouver, BC
Tornado Offline
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We've used the line bale on the Tornado Alu mast retrofit for spin...used 1/8" spectra and it lasted years (that stuff is slippery). The new Carbon stick comes with the solid bale already fitted.

With the line bale, the concern was introducing two knots on the inside of the track, which might hinder main sail bolt rope passage, depending on precisely where the holes were drilled. The solution here was to dril two holes per side, one above the other...and pass each end into the track then back out the other hole, placing the knot on the outside.

Also, the original post picture is not how we rig the halyard. Instead of running the halyard up to a cheek block then back down & out the bale, we run a single block tied to a strop. The strop is attached to a deckeye well above the bale. The block attachs below the bale. This way the halyard never can go higher than the block below the bale and there's no additional length of halyard line doubling back like with the cheek block setup (windage).



Mike Dobbs
Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
Re: Spinnaker Attachment Point [Re: ButchG] #157851
10/21/08 03:36 PM
10/21/08 03:36 PM

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andrewscott
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i think those four ratchomatic blocks are mine... i forgot to take them out of the storage box... please send them to me.. they were not part of your purchase ! smile

Re: Spinnaker Attachment Point [Re: ] #157862
10/21/08 04:28 PM
10/21/08 04:28 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 70
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ButchG Offline OP
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grinI went and told my wife that the guy we bought the boat from called and said he
needed some of the equipment back. The ratcho's in particular. When I told her what
they were gonna cost new....well....did I mention my wifes a redhead? shocked
Needless to say I'll be lettin her calm down some before I tell her that I was kidding.
The doghouse is gettin cold this time of year whistle


"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."


ButchG
Prindle 19 w/Spi
Re: Spinnaker Attachment Point [Re: ButchG] #157866
10/21/08 04:44 PM
10/21/08 04:44 PM

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andrewscott
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in my experience...
I have learned that spinnakers and my girlfriends are like oil and water... they don't mix without allot of shaking....

Somehow Spinnaker became a 4 letter word in my house and i couldn't even say it without being sent to the couch to sleep.

I am sure there are those gf's/wifes/etc that enjoy flying the hull downwind with the skipper letting out yelps of joy and fear... but i haven't had the pleasure of meeting one...

Last edited by andrewscott; 10/21/08 04:48 PM.
Re: Spinnaker Attachment Point [Re: ] #157886
10/21/08 07:30 PM
10/21/08 07:30 PM
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ButchG Offline OP
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Quote
...with the skipper letting out yelps of joy and fear...


Hmmmmm...sounds like the last time me and the WIfe...well, nevermind wink

Andrew...I got two words for ya boy - Red Head. In my experience they are the
most adventurous of the female gender. I have some experience in this. crazy


"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."


ButchG
Prindle 19 w/Spi
Re: Spinnaker Attachment Point [Re: ButchG] #158029
10/23/08 11:58 AM
10/23/08 11:58 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 149
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TurboCat Offline
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Oh man i had a few red headed girlfreinds...haha. Man they were a handful in many ways! I stick to the blondes now!

Butch youve got a PM. Sent this a.m.

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