Well the 2009-12 rules define "the zone" as three boat lenghts (first boat hitting the zone)and the rules were split out into three relevent rules.

SI's can change this back to two boats or increase it to 4 boat lenghts. (Annual meetings will need to address this issue as they rewrite the SI's and generate new NOR's for next season)

Given the new rules which dispense with the notion that your obligation was increasing and then locked in.... Now, your obligations slam into place at the point the SI's declare.

So... what should the cat fleets do for the SI's they write? Stay with the published rules... or change them per event.

and what should we recomend to the OA for the SI's of events we participate in?

What will the IHCA and the NAHCA do with their SI's?

IMO, we should change to the new ISAF rule standard of 3 boats. The most important aspect of a rule change is that everyone be on the same page. So... just like the starting sequence changes.. I think we should go with the flow and make the change to the now standard 3 boat lenght zone. IMO it will be much easier to tell some one... NEW RULES NOW... Pretty much the same except Now the two boat lenght circle is three boat lenghts... don't complain get a rule book for the next event. In multiclass regattas... it will eliminate confusion.

thoughts?

Previous debate on this issue was made without a full understanding of the new rules and IMO should be reconsidered.

Interesting...

You could have 2 length zone for all slow multis like the H14, Wave, etc. 3 length zone for the main/jib boats 16+, and 4 length zone for all spinn boats. Of course in a mixed fleet of all, my vote would be to amend the SIs and make it a 4 length zone. Could happen!

Bob

Stay with the rules, don't override with an item in the SI.

We will stick with 3 bl zone - for all the reasons mentioned above.

KISS...

That's one of the best things about the IHCA and HCA, standardization. You don't have to love every rule, but at least you know what to expect when you show up three states away for a regatta.

Wish I could say the same about some of the other large classes I run regattas for...

Mike

KISS is carrying the day!

My RSA is CBYRA and they have disccused the issue and will not change the RRS.

Bob Hodges, Pres of the USAC (A class) is also for not changing anything in the RRS.

I'm going to have to think on this one for awhile ....

That works out to a 120' circle /hole (that I can see expanding to 160-200'dia circle) ... that is HUGE !!!

Are we just rewarding "Risky" tactics, ie "starboard tack boats" w/ chutes UP that will come screaming into that size mark rounding circle who drive "port tack boats" into the next county if not the next timezone. Remember the new 18.2C Rule ... the starboard boat will have rights to that WHOLE zone.

I don't know ... it seems awefully large ..... (I could actually turn a tractor trailer around in a zone that large ... now are we driving tractor trailers on a sailboat race course ???)

I actually think we will see MORE starboard tack/inside overlap protests ... if a port tack boat has to give TOO much room, they won't give any .... "I'm overlaped to the outside ... no ROOM ..." Having to round a mark leaving 100' puts you in the spectator fleet.

I'm not sure about this ... it seems all the faster boats want this .... so they can sail faster, out of control ... maybe we should be thinking/promoting boat handling skills and THOUGHTFUL/SAFE racing ..... I don't know if this the correct course of action.

Sail Flat, Sail Fast, Sail SAFE
Harry Murphey
H18MX/#9458,Fleet54/Div11
P19MX/#86, CRAC-Open Class

Yep, that is my view, as per my comments here

Protests... Yes/ maybe... Collisions.... NO.

Starboard will bail and protest... (and port will be tossed).

So.. its a good change! No collisions is a good thing.

After some experience with the rules... Port will make sure they are clear ahead of starbord... or wait their turn.

Yes, I get that for a group of boats on port tack it will make them line up earlier like some class of school kids entering the museum, and round the mark in an orderly manner.

Thats the first level .... lets look at the next level, a starboard/port tack meeting at the mark .....

As I come in on starboard, I am watching the port tack boat closely (of course), and what I'm looking at are their bows ... if the bows fall off I'm going to use the WHOLE zone and drive the port tack boat as far away from the mark as possible as I do not lose my inside overlap rights UNTIL I go outside the zone. Now if their bows come up I'm going to "slam" gybe my boat around hard, shutting the inside door and if the port tack boat tries to go inside I WILL PROTEST THEM!!!! as they have no rights according to the new rules (Rules 18.2b/c,18.4)to manuver their boat into that space until the starboard boat crosses to be outside the zone.

Now ... the Law of Un-Intended Consquences

So what is the end result ... we will be rewarding people whom decide to use the risky strategy of coming into a leeward mark on starboard, making a 180degree turn, thereby allowing them to drive the port tack boats into the next county or state .... Starboard needs to learn to slow down early, come into the rounding in a controlled manner, and make the rounding with-in the Two Boat Length Zone. Which is entirely possible w/ reasonable boat handling judgement and skills.

The port tack boat whom as decided on a conservative, SAFE stratagy of rounding a leeward mark gets SCREWED. Also the port tack boat before had a reasonable idea of where the starboard tack boat had to gybe and round the mark, now it will be a 80-100' window where the starboard tack boat will gybe ... that's almost a 1/4 acre.

At those distances it will (???) pay for a port tack boat to foul the starboard tack boat ... round the mark and do a penalty turn and be on their way up the course. And if I am overlaped on port I have even less incentive to give starboard any room ... if starboard hits me they will then lose the protest. If they bail and protest me, I round the mark and do my circle ... most likely I will still be ahead ....

A zone of 3-4 boat lengths is just TOO large ... if your boat handling skills are not that good you shouldn't be rewarded for coming in on starboard

I like the new rules w/ a TWO Boat Length Zone once it gets much bigger it makes "Port" pay too high of price, and then "Port" WILL find a way to make the rules work to their favor ..... even if it involves doing circles

And if you think me crazy ... I came into the leeward mark on Starboard once ... a group of H17's on port left me NO, NONE, NADA room to round the mark so I "ate" the mark between the hulls ... by the time I had removed the mark from between my hulls the offending H17's had completed their penalty circles and were half way up to the windward mark ...... so I learned my lesson about starboard approaches to a leeward mark. The port tack H17's decided it was faster to "break" a rule, and take the penalty .... it was faster ....

IMHO this is where we are headed w/ this rule

Race SMART

Sail Flat, Sail Fast, Sail Safe
Harry Murphey
TheMightyHobie18/#9458, Fleet 54/Div11
P19MX/#86, CRAC-Open Class

If this becomes a problem then the issue of modifying the this rule with the SI's can be revisited. I'm still against overriding the rules with the SI's.

I don't see the increased zone size as a major issue, only time will tell.

Harry... Don't panic!!! Like all rule changes, this will take a few regattas to see the change in action. My guess is, it won't be a big deal.

If anything, the three length rule helps establish rights SOONER, which is a MAJOR improvement.

Let's not forget, the real "low percentage" play is to come into any boat-crossing situation on port.

Let's also not forget that any good RC will be running a little thing called a GATE!!! If a boat comes in on port, and has starboard boats coming at him, the port boat can always gybe and go around the port mark (looking upwind). If the port boat is inside at the port mark, he has rights over starboard anyway.

Mike

Yes, this change FURTHER encourages boats to come into the gate from the outside of the course.

Mark, Matt or any sea lawyer...Please clarify what you mean when you refer to the "increasing obligation" prior to reaching the circle. Have they removed the "about to round mark" language?

Hi Dan,

That is my understanding from the sailing magazines....
No more "increasing obligation with rights set at the two boat length circle. Now... It's not fuzzy.. rights are instantly established when the first boat hits the 3 boat length zone.

I am sure more discussion from the rule makers will be forthcoming early next year.

Yes.

Mike and Matt

Does increasing the zone to three boat lenghts automatically mean that the gate width will also increase by two boat lengths from about 6 now?

The zones cannot overlap and an 8 BL gate should be the new norm.

Actually, in anything more than about 5 knots, the gates I set are always 7 to 10 BL wide. More wind/waves/boats = wider gates.

If the course is set properly (about a 15 to 20 minute lap time), the boats will have spread out somewhat by the first gate. If there's a lot of boats, then you want a longer lap time to spread them out more. Where you get into trouble is when geography prevents you from setting a 1.7 nm weather leg (like on a small lake).

Agree, not much need for change.

The minimum would now be 6 lenghts so the zones don't overlap. Any jury would want to kill you if you overlapped the zones, and wouldn't be much happier if they were "kissing".

As Matt said, in reality the target has always been a bit more than that anyway.

Here is why I don't think it needs to be any wider than around 8-10 lengths. Experience tells me that if the gate is too wide, it becomes useless, because everyone will go around the mark that is perceived to be favored. The perception can be due to an intentional RC effort to split the fleet, a wind shift, a drifting mark, a favored side of the course, or boats that want to limit their number of tacks after the mark, or gybes before it (more common with monos, especially youth).

Of course, every "rule" has an exception, as Matt said, sometimes the herd just isn't thinned enough to squeeze through a 10-length gate when it's blowing 30 kts...

Hope this helps.

Mike