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Re: great 2nd amendment video [Re: waterbug_wpb] #161857
12/03/08 05:10 PM
12/03/08 05:10 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 915
Dublin, Ireland
Dermot Offline
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Dermot  Offline
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If any of the statistics below are even close to the truth, how can anyone justify having guns for "self defence" - as opposed to guns for hunting and target shooting etc.

America and Gun Violence
American children are more at risk from firearms than the children of any other industrialized nation. In one year, firearms killed no children in Japan, 19 in Great Britain, 57 in Germany, 109 in France, 153 in Canada, and 5,285 in the United States. (Centers for Disease Control)

Children and Gun Violence

America is losing too many children to gun violence. Between 1979 and 2001, gunfire killed 90,000 children and teens in America. (Children's Defense Fund and National Center for Health Statistics)
In one year, more children and teens died from gunfire than from cancer, pneumonia, influenza, asthma, and HIV/AIDS combined. (Children's Defense Fund)
The rate of firearm deaths among kids under age 15 is almost 12 times higher in the United States than in 25 other industrialized countries combined. (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention)
America and Gun Violence

Every day, more than 80 Americans die from gun violence. (Coalition to Stop Gun Violence)
The rate of firearm deaths among kids under age 15 is almost 12 times higher in the United States than in 25 other industrialized countries combined. (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention)
American kids are 16 times more likely to be murdered with a gun, 11 times more likely to commit suicide with a gun, and nine times more likely to die from a firearm accident than children in 25 other industrialized countries combined. (Centers for Disease Control)



Dermot
Catapult 265
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: great 2nd amendment video [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #161859
12/03/08 05:24 PM
12/03/08 05:24 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Okay, I will give you the "advantage by mindset". But the homeowner has advantage of terrain, which in my view can offset the criminal's advantage. Even if it's just to evacuate quickly or notify authorities.

Home invasions are somewhat common in USA. However, most intruders are not intent on causing physical harm to the occupants. They seek money or items they can exchange for money/drugs.

Intruders are usually suprised when confronted by occupants, and will exit the premises immediately. There are those criminals who do not react in this manner, whether by "intent" to comit harm, drug use, or other circumstances. It is these cases where an action plan which may involve an elevated level of force may be necessary to protect family members.

I define "action plan" as a means to extract family members and other occupants from the potential conflict situation ( by notification, evacuation, or barricade). "Elevated level of force" is based loosely on commonly accepted principles of defensive action. In VERY RARE circumstances would lethal force be necessary, but I am a firm believer in "be prepared".

Given the hypothetical situation of a home invasion, would I hunt down the buglar and shoot them? Most likely not. Would I have a firearm handy in case the situation presented no other option than to defend myself with lethal force? Yes.

There are quite a few examples of intruders being shot (and sometimes killed) during home invasions.

NRA publications are very good at publisizing actual (and recent) accounts of armed citizens successfully defending themselves against attack. Yes, this accounts for probably less than 1% of all criminal acts purpotrated, but it does indeed happen in USA today.


Jay

Re: great 2nd amendment video [Re: Dermot] #161860
12/03/08 05:27 PM
12/03/08 05:27 PM
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Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Dermot,

I respect your view, but disagree that children are at huge threat to death by firearm.

Biggest killer of children in USA is most likely accidental drowning or poisoning.

Biggest killer of teenagers is by far automobile crashes.

Firearm deaths in certain segments of population is larger due to suspected gang activity.

Losing any person is sad. Let's just keep things in perspective.

If 80 persons die each day due to gun violence, how many die from auto crashes, smoking, drugs, drowning, domestic violence (without firearms)? I would suspect each of these items kills more people per day than guns.

Perspective... don't lose focus on the Big Picture.


Last edited by waterbug_wpb; 12/03/08 05:29 PM.

Jay

Re: great 2nd amendment video [Re: Tony_F18] #161861
12/03/08 05:32 PM
12/03/08 05:32 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Originally Posted by SurfCityRacing


What if one law-abiding, well-trained student had a concealed carry permit? That may have stopped Cho in his tracks.

Guns at school, that sounds like a great idea! sick
With so many people owning guns, I would say that fear is good for business.


You couldn't have said that better!


Jake Kohl
Re: great 2nd amendment video [Re: Dermot] #161862
12/03/08 05:36 PM
12/03/08 05:36 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 695
Ft. Pierce, Fl. USA
Seeker Offline
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“America is losing too many children to gun violence. Between 1979 and 2001, gunfire killed 90,000 children and teens in America. (Children's Defense Fund and National Center for Health Statistics)”
How many of those children and teens were gang bangers? How many of them would still have guns if they were banned…how many would still be walking around on the streets without jail time after being caught with a hand gun after the ban?

Statistics are BS…you can prove or disprove anything with them depending upon how you categorize things. Definition of Statistics is “a scientific way to pass a lie as the truth”

Regards,
Bob

Re: great 2nd amendment video [Re: Dermot] #161863
12/03/08 05:42 PM
12/03/08 05:42 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 291
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JACKFLASH Offline
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I am only jumping into this thread for historical reasons. The comment on why Germany did not invade the US is somewhat inaccurate. It came from a post war interview of both Truman and a Japanese Minister of Defense or some title like that. He was asked why Japan did not invade Hawaii after attacking Pearl Harbor. His response was something like there was no military advantage to invading Hawaii unless you wanted to use it as a staging/fueling point to invade the rest of the US. Their (Japan's) intelligence determined that 1 in 3 or maybe 1 in 5 people in the US owned a firearm of some type. As result they felt like it would be stratigically foolish to go up against those odds while they were still fighting on other fronts. You also have to keep in mind that at the time bombing the US in preperation for a ground invasion was not really an option. The planes of the era required a carrier launch and their ability to carry on a bombing campaign would have been squashed long before they could have done enough damage to have a high likelyhood of success of a ground invasion. The bottom line the US was not invaded due to many reasons but private gun ownership was part of it. Now that I have cleared up history I need to go clean my S&W 9mm as it has not been out of the case in 6 months. What can I say, Us Texans like to own guns, even if we don't carry them.


Collin Casey
Infusion Platform + C2 rig and rags = one fast cookie
Re: great 2nd amendment video [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #161864
12/03/08 05:42 PM
12/03/08 05:42 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,304
Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
TeamChums Offline
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Quote
If somebody hold me up with a gun, I have done enough armed closed combat training in the army to not try to pull my own piece or do some funky [censored].


LOL! Did they train you to deflect a bullet with your hand?


Lee

Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
Re: great 2nd amendment video [Re: waterbug_wpb] #161865
12/03/08 05:44 PM
12/03/08 05:44 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
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Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Okay, I will give you the "advantage by mindset". But the homeowner has advantage of terrain, which in my view can offset the criminal's advantage. Even if it's just to evacuate quickly or notify authorities.

Home invasions are somewhat common in USA. However, most intruders are not intent on causing physical harm to the occupants. They seek money or items they can exchange for money/drugs.

Intruders are usually suprised when confronted by occupants, and will exit the premises immediately. There are those criminals who do not react in this manner, whether by "intent" to comit harm, drug use, or other circumstances. It is these cases where an action plan which may involve an elevated level of force may be necessary to protect family members.

I define "action plan" as a means to extract family members and other occupants from the potential conflict situation ( by notification, evacuation, or barricade). "Elevated level of force" is based loosely on commonly accepted principles of defensive action. In VERY RARE circumstances would lethal force be necessary, but I am a firm believer in "be prepared".

Given the hypothetical situation of a home invasion, would I hunt down the buglar and shoot them? Most likely not. Would I have a firearm handy in case the situation presented no other option than to defend myself with lethal force? Yes.

There are quite a few examples of intruders being shot (and sometimes killed) during home invasions.

NRA publications are very good at publisizing actual (and recent) accounts of armed citizens successfully defending themselves against attack. Yes, this accounts for probably less than 1% of all criminal acts purpotrated, but it does indeed happen in USA today.



"Home invasions" or burglary as we call it here are not uncommon. But they seek cash or easy to fence items and hit homes without people. I say it again, if you go up against an armed burglar with your gun, you better shoot him straight away preferably in the back instead of confronting him or doing some kind of "action plan". Put two bullets in his torso as close to the centerline in the chest as you can and one in his head. The golden rule of handguns is that you dont pull it unless you are going to use it. That was the clear message we got before were were checked out on the Glock 19. Do you still want to confront a criminal with your handgun?


Big picture? Handsguns bring very little good to a modern society, but they are big business and Hollywood loves them.

Re: great 2nd amendment video [Re: TeamChums] #161866
12/03/08 05:46 PM
12/03/08 05:46 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
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Originally Posted by TeamChums
Quote
If somebody hold me up with a gun, I have done enough armed closed combat training in the army to not try to pull my own piece or do some funky [censored].


LOL! Did they train you to deflect a bullet with your hand?


Want to try again?

Re: great 2nd amendment video [Re: waterbug_wpb] #161867
12/03/08 05:47 PM
12/03/08 05:47 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 291
J
JACKFLASH Offline
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JACKFLASH  Offline
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J

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 291
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Dermot,

I respect your view, but disagree that children are at huge threat to death by firearm.

Biggest killer of children in USA is most likely accidental drowning or poisoning.

Biggest killer of teenagers is by far automobile crashes.

Firearm deaths in certain segments of population is larger due to suspected gang activity.

Losing any person is sad. Let's just keep things in perspective.

If 80 persons die each day due to gun violence, how many die from auto crashes, smoking, drugs, drowning, domestic violence (without firearms)? I would suspect each of these items kills more people per day than guns.

Perspective... don't lose focus on the Big Picture.



More children die in Africa due to starvation on any given day than they do in the US from guns. I feel that statistics are important. In the US more people die from car accidents than by any other means. When I get home I can look up what the exact numbers were for 2007. The second leading cause of death was Heart Disease. If I remember correctly the death by firearm in the US was 6 or 7 on the list.


Collin Casey
Infusion Platform + C2 rig and rags = one fast cookie
Re: great 2nd amendment video [Re: JACKFLASH] #161868
12/03/08 05:50 PM
12/03/08 05:50 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
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Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
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Originally Posted by JACKFLASH

More children die in Africa due to starvation on any given day than they do in the US from guns. I feel that statistics are important. In the US more people die from car accidents than by any other means. When I get home I can look up what the exact numbers were for 2007. The second leading cause of death was Heart Disease. If I remember correctly the death by firearm in the US was 6 or 7 on the list.


So no reason to do anything about that?


Got a referral to the story about private gun ownership figuring high on the list of why Japan did not invade the US? Sounds very far fetched as Japan had ambitions in the pacific. Actually invading and conquering the USA is something I have never heard the japanese contemplating.

Re: great 2nd amendment video [Re: Seeker] #161869
12/03/08 05:50 PM
12/03/08 05:50 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 915
Dublin, Ireland
Dermot Offline
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Dermot  Offline
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Dublin, Ireland
I am not talking about gun deaths in relation to drownings or car crashes. I am talking about gun deaths in relation to other countries where private ownership of guns is not allowed.
Do you not realise how many gun deaths you have compared to almost every other modern country ?


Dermot
Catapult 265
Re: great 2nd amendment video [Re: Seeker] #161870
12/03/08 05:56 PM
12/03/08 05:56 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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I gotta say this is by far the dumbest f*cking discussion on here since the F16 minimum weight topic.

And yet I partake.

Why is it Rolf that you can have firearms, but I can't? All the regulation you talk about doesn't sound much different than what we have here. The Norwegian Gov't must put something in the water to keep everyone over there friendly and docile, or all the assho1es fled Europe and came here.

And no, I don't live in a state of constant fear. I carry for the same reasons I have a spare tire, just in case.

Re: great 2nd amendment video [Re: TeamChums] #161871
12/03/08 05:57 PM
12/03/08 05:57 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Originally Posted by TeamChums
Quote
If somebody hold me up with a gun, I have done enough armed closed combat training in the army to not try to pull my own piece or do some funky [censored].


LOL! Did they train you to deflect a bullet with your hand?


Chuck Norris style! LOL


I'm boatless.
Re: great 2nd amendment video [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #161872
12/03/08 05:57 PM
12/03/08 05:57 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 749
Santa Cruz, CA
SurfCityRacing Offline
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Santa Cruz, CA
Originally Posted by Rolf_Nilsen

"Home invasions" or burglary as we call it here are not uncommon. But they seek cash or easy to fence items and hit homes without people.


One of the easiest things for a crook to sell is a gun. That's why they're highly sought after by the criminal element. Keep them locked and hidden.

J

Re: great 2nd amendment video [Re: Karl_Brogger] #161875
12/03/08 06:08 PM
12/03/08 06:08 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
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Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger


Why is it Rolf that you can have firearms, but I can't? All the regulation you talk about doesn't sound much different than what we have here. The Norwegian Gov't must put something in the water to keep everyone over there friendly and docile, or all the assho1es fled Europe and came here.

And no, I don't live in a state of constant fear. I carry for the same reasons I have a spare tire, just in case.


Do you carry some atropine as well? Just in case you are hit by nerve gas?

Did I say you could not have firearms? I have been talking about revolvers/pistols/automatic rifles/assault weapons. I advocate that those should be limited to people who use them in their work (law enforcement, military etc.) and to those who use them actively for sports. I see no reason for others to own small arms like that. I have hunting weapons. Not very suited to hold up somebody in an alley, do burglary with or bring with me to a bar. We have our good supply of assholes, but they dont have readily access to firearms. Good thing.

Re: great 2nd amendment video [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #161876
12/03/08 06:13 PM
12/03/08 06:13 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 291
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JACKFLASH Offline
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Originally Posted by Rolf_Nilsen
Originally Posted by JACKFLASH

More children die in Africa due to starvation on any given day than they do in the US from guns. I feel that statistics are important. In the US more people die from car accidents than by any other means. When I get home I can look up what the exact numbers were for 2007. The second leading cause of death was Heart Disease. If I remember correctly the death by firearm in the US was 6 or 7 on the list.


So no reason to do anything about that?


Got a referral to the story about private gun ownership figuring high on the list of why Japan did not invade the US? Sounds very far fetched as Japan had ambitions in the pacific. Actually invading and conquering the USA is something I have never heard the japanese contemplating.


That is my point, they were not contemplating it. As I said before, there are many reasons why they did not invade, private gun ownership is just one of them. Japan was just another pawn for Hitler, his goal was world domination which would include the US. And no, I never said not to help the starving children in Africa. I am only pointing out that there are bigger causes of death in the world than guns.


Collin Casey
Infusion Platform + C2 rig and rags = one fast cookie
Re: great 2nd amendment video [Re: SurfCityRacing] #161877
12/03/08 06:16 PM
12/03/08 06:16 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,304
Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
TeamChums Offline
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For the record: I don't even own a handgun BUT I don't want to be told that I can't, that's why I am a law abiding citizen. I have 2 shotguns, one hunting rifle and one SKS that is "sporterized" that is my favorite coyote shooting gun. All my guns are stored unloaded (except the 12ga. under the bed) and when I have company over, I make sure none of my guns are accesible to anyone (children or adults). I believe in being ready. I don't want to be in on the losing end of a home invasion for a lack of trying. Rolf, maybe I could hire you to guard my house and I could store the 12ga. with the others. As far as training goes, sometimes you may be able to know all the steps and still not be able to dance. I've seen that cenario play out first hand once, so don't address me as though I don't know what I'm talking about. I just choose not to try to impress everyone with my resume to make a point.


Lee

Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
Re: great 2nd amendment video [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #161878
12/03/08 06:20 PM
12/03/08 06:20 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Originally Posted by Rolf_Nilsen

Did I say you could not have firearms? I have been talking about revolvers/pistols/automatic rifles/assault weapons. I advocate that those should be limited to people who use them in their work (law enforcement, military etc.) and to those who use them actively for sports.
I said this in another thread. I've never shot anyone, or even shot at anyone. So that leaves me with hunting, and sport, (I'm not military or a policeman), both of which I do, and which I bet close to 100% of lawfull gun owners do as well. I couldn't find any numbers on it, but I can think of one instance where a person with a CCW permit shot someone in a criminal fashion. Even then, he wasn't legal because he had been drinking. In Minnesota our permits are no longer valid if you have alcohol in your system. I don't remember if it was zero, or a just a really low number.

Re: great 2nd amendment video [Re: Dermot] #161879
12/03/08 06:21 PM
12/03/08 06:21 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
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JACKFLASH Offline
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Posts: 291
Originally Posted by Dermot
I am not talking about gun deaths in relation to drownings or car crashes. I am talking about gun deaths in relation to other countries where private ownership of guns is not allowed.
Do you not realise how many gun deaths you have compared to almost every other modern country ?


I don't have the answer to the questions I am about to ask but....when comparing statistics to how many children were killed by guns in the US versus another country, it is only truely relevant if compare the percentage of gun deaths in the US to the percentage of gun death in another country. If my population is bigger than your population the numbers will always be bigger, percentages are usually stable. All though I would not be surprised that the precentage would be higher here than in a country that had a gun ban. I would be more interested to know what the different life expectancy is of individuals in each country. Either way I do agree with the statement that "guns don't kill people, people kill people". Agree or don't, rather there is a gun or not, people will die because of other peoples actions. The solution is not eliminating the guns but rather addressing the issues that cause someone to pull a gun on another person. I can say from experience that I would never want to use a gun on another person AGAIN, but if put in the same situation as six years ago, I would.


Collin Casey
Infusion Platform + C2 rig and rags = one fast cookie
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