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Battens tapered and CE #183772
07/01/09 07:40 AM
07/01/09 07:40 AM
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cooper engineer Offline OP
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If I taper the battens it will come ahead moved also the centre of effort?

thanks

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Re: Battens tapered and CE [Re: cooper engineer] #183787
07/01/09 09:14 AM
07/01/09 09:14 AM
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Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline

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Tapering too far forward and it will move the draft forward.
Rick


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
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Re: Battens tapered and CE [Re: RickWhite] #183789
07/01/09 09:25 AM
07/01/09 09:25 AM
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cooper engineer Offline OP
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....... and move also the CE forward ?
..... and it reduces the weather helm ?

Thanks

Re: Battens tapered and CE [Re: cooper engineer] #183791
07/01/09 09:30 AM
07/01/09 09:30 AM
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Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline

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Not sure what boat you are doing this to. If a sloop, you do not want the draft forward where the jib overlaps.
With boat with semi wing masts (large major axis, low minor axis) the mast becomes part of the sail. So, you can move the draft forward enough so the overall draft is still in the low to mid 30% range.
On a fixed stick or roundish type mast like the Wave, you do not want to move the draft forward.
Rick


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Re: Battens tapered and CE [Re: RickWhite] #183804
07/01/09 10:29 AM
07/01/09 10:29 AM
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cooper engineer Offline OP
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I have a 20 ft. cat with wingmast ....and with more weather helm;

The issue is if moving the draft forward then reduces also the weather helm for the fact that moves also the CE forward.

Excused my very bad English .....

blush blush


Re: Battens tapered and CE [Re: cooper engineer] #183806
07/01/09 10:34 AM
07/01/09 10:34 AM
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France
pepin Offline
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can't you just reduce the mast rake?

Re: Battens tapered and CE [Re: pepin] #183809
07/01/09 10:39 AM
07/01/09 10:39 AM
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cooper engineer Offline OP
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The mast is already now perpendicular. I have tried in the forum but I have not found arguments that they put in relation the tapering of the battens with the position of the CE.

Re: Battens tapered and CE [Re: cooper engineer] #183812
07/01/09 10:48 AM
07/01/09 10:48 AM
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scooby_simon Offline
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Check the rudders; can you move the tip of the blade forward; this might help.


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Re: Battens tapered and CE [Re: cooper engineer] #183815
07/01/09 10:58 AM
07/01/09 10:58 AM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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Originally Posted by cooper engineer
I have a 20 ft. cat with wingmast ....and with more weather helm;

The issue is if moving the draft forward then reduces also the weather helm for the fact that moves also the CE forward.


The short answer is "yes" the CE will move forward, but by a shorter distance than that of the draft movement.

The difference is due to the jib, obviously, and due to more complex aerodynamic reasons that I will leave for someone more qualified to explain.

I would only move the draft to move the CE if the sail would also perform better after the change. Otherwise, just change the mast and/or rudder trim, as already suggested.


Luiz
Re: Battens tapered and CE [Re: scooby_simon] #183816
07/01/09 11:01 AM
07/01/09 11:01 AM
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.

Last edited by cooper engineer; 07/01/09 11:03 AM.
Re: Battens tapered and CE [Re: Luiz] #183819
07/01/09 11:08 AM
07/01/09 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Luiz
Originally Posted by cooper engineer
I have a 20 ft. cat with wingmast ....and with more weather helm;

The issue is if moving the draft forward then reduces also the weather helm for the fact that moves also the CE forward.


The short answer is "yes" the CE will move forward, but by a shorter distance than that of the draft movement.

The difference is due to the jib, obviously, and due to more complex aerodynamic reasons that I will leave for someone more qualified to explain.

I would only move the draft to move the CE if the sail would also perform better after the change. Otherwise, just change the mast and/or rudder trim, as already suggested.


The draft now is at 40% and i not consider the wingmast ..... i think that if the draft move to 30% the sail perform better ..... or not ?

Re: Battens tapered and CE [Re: cooper engineer] #183820
07/01/09 11:09 AM
07/01/09 11:09 AM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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Originally Posted by cooper engineer
move the tip of the blade forward resolve the problem or hide the problem ?


Tilting the rudder forward solves the problem and reduces the possibility of ventilation.
If the mast is vertical, I would tilt the rudder forward as much as possible and then rake the mast back until the rudder feels right.
A totally neutral helm is not ideal, so don't try to completely eliminate weather helm.


Luiz
Re: Battens tapered and CE [Re: cooper engineer] #183821
07/01/09 11:09 AM
07/01/09 11:09 AM
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South Louisiana, USA
Clayton Offline
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How new is your sail? An old baggy sail will give the same result.

Re: Battens tapered and CE [Re: cooper engineer] #183823
07/01/09 11:17 AM
07/01/09 11:17 AM
Joined: Aug 2001
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Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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Originally Posted by cooper engineer

The draft now is at 40% and i not consider the wingmast ..... i think that if the draft move to 30% the sail perform better ..... or not ?


The wingmast is part of the airofoil and must be considered. If it is a 10% wingmast, the airfoil draft is at 50% and moving it forward should be beneficial.

Still, it depends on other factors. Best thing to do is check the draft position of the regatta winners in your class.

A few relevant questions:
What boat is it?
Does the jib overlap?
Do you use a downhaul? Is it powerfull enough?
How old are your sails and of what sailcloth?
Are the battens not tappered at all or you just plan to increase the tapper?


Luiz
Re: Battens tapered and CE [Re: Luiz] #183825
07/01/09 11:21 AM
07/01/09 11:21 AM
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cooper engineer Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Luiz
Originally Posted by cooper engineer
move the tip of the blade forward resolve the problem or hide the problem ?


Tilting the rudder forward solves the problem and reduces the possibility of ventilation.
If the mast is vertical, I would tilt the rudder forward as much as possible and then rake the mast back until the rudder feels right.
A totally neutral helm is not ideal, so don't try to completely eliminate weather helm.


Thanks Luiz, but i don't understand the rule for which if I move the rudder forward i reduces the weather helm. please explains me. The sail is not old but it could be cut badly

Re: Battens tapered and CE [Re: cooper engineer] #183826
07/01/09 11:22 AM
07/01/09 11:22 AM
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Hamburg
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Quote
....... and move also the CE forward ?
..... and it reduces the weather helm ?

in short: no for both questions.
the centre of effort is nearly not affected by the position of the draft, but by the amount of draft. Tapering the battens will increase the draft and you get more weather helm.

Too much weather helm is in most cases a too full main and/or a too flat jib.

Cheers,

Klaus

Re: Battens tapered and CE [Re: Luiz] #183827
07/01/09 11:29 AM
07/01/09 11:29 AM
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cooper engineer Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Luiz
Originally Posted by cooper engineer

The draft now is at 40% and i not consider the wingmast ..... i think that if the draft move to 30% the sail perform better ..... or not ?


The wingmast is part of the airofoil and must be considered. If it is a 10% wingmast, the airfoil draft is at 50% and moving it forward should be beneficial.

Still, it depends on other factors. Best thing to do is check the draft position of the regatta winners in your class.

A few relevant questions:
What boat is it?
Does the jib overlap?
Do you use a downhaul? Is it powerfull enough?
How old are your sails and of what sailcloth?
Are the battens not tappered at all or you just plan to increase the tapper?


the boat is a prototype to which it has been adapted a sail...probably F18, the jib don't overlap ( i have self tacking ), i use the downhaul that is 8:1, the battens are tapered at 40%.......

Re: Battens tapered and CE [Re: cooper engineer] #183829
07/01/09 11:32 AM
07/01/09 11:32 AM
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Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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Originally Posted by cooper engineer

...i don't understand the rule for which if I move the rudder forward i reduces the weather helm. please explains me.


It does not look natural, but tilting the rudder forward may improve its balance, depending on how it is now. Check the drawings:
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

They are from this website, which is recommended reading.

Last edited by Luiz; 07/01/09 11:39 AM.

Luiz
Re: Battens tapered and CE [Re: Luiz] #183832
07/01/09 11:38 AM
07/01/09 11:38 AM
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cooper engineer Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Luiz
Originally Posted by cooper engineer
Originally Posted by Luiz
Originally Posted by cooper engineer
move the tip of the blade forward resolve the problem or hide the problem ?


Tilting the rudder forward solves the problem and reduces the possibility of ventilation.
If the mast is vertical, I would tilt the rudder forward as much as possible and then rake the mast back until the rudder feels right.
A totally neutral helm is not ideal, so don't try to completely eliminate weather helm.


Thanks Luiz, but i don't understand the rule for which if I move the rudder forward i reduces the weather helm. please explains me. The sail is not old but it could be cut badly


It does not look natural, but tilting the rudder forward may improve its balance, depending on how it is now. I'll try to find a drawing.


instinctively I think tilting the rudder forward move the CLR forward and inreases the weather helm ..... and don't understand ......

Re: Battens tapered and CE [Re: cooper engineer] #183834
07/01/09 11:40 AM
07/01/09 11:40 AM
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Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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Take a look at my last post now that I edited to add pictures and a link.


Luiz
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