I posted a classified ad here and other places and have rec'd 2 responses from people in West Africa. Both want to buy my boat, but there is something very odd about the whole thing. Has anyone had deals with boats that went to W Africa? I am a little skeptical.

David Mosley
www.seacats.org

It's a scam.
They will probably offer to send you more than you are asking and then ask you to send back the balance, or something in that line. You never get the first amount and will have sent a draft to them.
I really don't know how people fall for it, but it seems that it has happened.

sounds like the Niger scam for sailing, they might want your bank account #'s. You know, just be smart. I would just ignore those replys.

David,
Check out this website: http://www.trailersailor.com/forums/classifieds/index.cgi?read=19260,africa,scam

There seems to be a lot of this going around lately. A sailor on our old forum made a post asking for advice on how to ship a boat to Africa. Somebody who answered him gave him the above website link to check out. I started checking it out because we, too, got an e-mail from somebody in Africa, and he wanted to buy all the boats we could find -- supposedly had buyers looking for used boats.

I found some more information at other sites on the internet and also read an article recently about a woman in Akron, Ohio who helped the police to bust a scam ring. She was advertising a used piano in the newspaper, and she received an inquiry from Africa from someone who supposedly buys and repairs old musical instruments. She became suspicious because he was not interested in seeing a picture of the piano. The scammers are also offering to buy automobiles.

Many businesses will no longer accept orders from overseas because of the many problems with scammers using stolen credit card numbers. But businesses catch on real fast when they start getting chargebacks on credit card orders. For these new scams, there are an unlimited number of targets because of all the individuals selling things through classified ads.

Some people are avoiding the problem by just not putting their e-mail addresses in their classified ads. Or, like windbtch said, just ignore inquiries from overseas.

I keep getting this e-mail from Africa that says we have 25 million dollars that we need to get to America. I am sure thats a scam

Big Scam! You can report it (there is an agency that follows up on that) or just delete, do not reply or act on it!

Clayton

Someone else who "speaka no englee" wants to pay me $4500 with a check, then have me send down the change!
What a scam, are people really that stupid to fall for that?
Watch out for these idiots. I have gotten 3 e-mails, all of them have been in broken english, and either all caps, or lower case. One even said "my name is Elizabeth Juones, I am a businessman(gave it away right there) from New York living in west Africa. I am intrigued by the price and would like to buy your boat. I will arrange all shipping and send you a check"
These people are brazen, please do not fall for it. As Mary Welss told me, some people who have advertised on Catsailor are not even putting their e-mail address on the ad because they were getting this kind of crap.

David Mosley
www.seacats.org

Check out this site. www.scamorama.com

Here is a perfect example of how one of these scams work -- we just received this e-mail from "mega Larry":

"I am interested in buying your Taipan 5.7 for $9,990 . I will make adequate arrangement as regards shipping. If this offer is okay, please mail me so that I can have my client owing me in US make the payment. I will speak to a client of mine who is owing me $17,000 to send a cheque to you and all you have to do is to deduct the cost of the Complete Taipan 5.7 from it and then send the balance to the shipping agent in west africa nigeria Through Money Gram transfer. This is the fastest way I can make payment now as a cheque sent from here Accra-Ghana will take over 10 days to clear but cheque in US will take just 1- 2 days to clear over there. Which means you still have to provide me with your full contact info example: [Fullname to be written on the cheque,Addresse, Zipcode and phone number]i want to know the present condition If this is okay, I will send your contact info to him so that he can make payment.As regards this shipping, I have a shipper would we come and pick it up as soon we have concluded."

Rick responded as follows: "Our magazine has run stories on this scam and hopefully the catamaran folks won't fall for it."

same story, different name. If anyone seems less interested in the boat, and more on the money arrangement, red flags should be raised.

David Mosley

I have a 1989 Hobie 16 for sale on a couple classified ad sites and got this email tonight.

"I'm looking for a used H16 because I want to start in Cat Sailing, and for now there is no need to buy a new one.
I am from Portugal, its far but is it possible to deliver the H16 here. I will pay shipment and taxes. You just need to drop the Hobie on a carrier that deliver worldwide. As for payment I can pay with a Money Order or Western Union.
Can you send pictures of the hobie and describe its condition and its Price.
Thanks!!
Rui Xavier"

Sounds like the same scam to me!!
Jack Hoying
Fort Loramie, Ohio
http://www.bright.net/~jdt/h16/h16.htm

I don't know...if he's willing to pay via western union or money order that's pretty straight up. It's going to be hard for him to scam you when you have cash in your hands (prior to shipment).

Of course, actually getting it to a port and in a container to go to Portugal from Ohio will probably be a pain in the a$$.

I don't know, Jack. Seems like it would be hard to go wrong if somebody sends you cash via Western Union. Most of the scams require you to send money to them. Also, when it is a scam, they don't usually ask for pictures or care about the condition of the item. So maybe this one is for real.

Sorry, Jake. I wasn't copying you. We were thinking alike and posting at the same time.

Well, I have taken your advice and emailed him back as if he is a serious buyer. He did ask about condition and for photos, but I did have a link to that infromation in the ads I placed. Seems like there would be lots of H16s for sale somewhere in Europe. You could buy a much nicer boat for the same money it would cost for this one and dedicating almost and entire container for overseas shipping. (not counting having it shipped to the East coast) My boat has the frame epoxied together, so it would have to be shipped intact.
I'll let you know the outcome of the dealings.
Jack

I know there is quite a demand in Europe for used cats from the States. Supposedly, even including the shipping and duty, they are much cheaper than comparable used boats over there.

From my experience they never asked about the boat, it was all about the money. Sounds ligit to me
Good Luck,
David Mosley
www.seacats.org

If they send you a money order you should cash it and wait a few days to see if it was counterfeit(sp?). The bank should know within 3 days if it was counterfeit. That is another typical scam that they pull. Or they send you a money order for more than the purchase price and ask you to mail them the balance.

Good Luck,
Mike Hill

Here is my two cents on the issue:

I am living in Paraguay, a country ranked as the second most corrupt in the World (but some say that the first place was lost only because the local government bribed the second to switch places... )

My job is Treasurer of the local ING branch. This group is one of the biggest financial institutions in the World and the second biggest company in the Netherlands.

All this means that I am trained to avoid scams, money laundering and other generally unhealthy practices that appear from time to time.

So far, all internet scams I saw came from Africa. But I wouldn't discard the posibility of a different origin - including this country. Interestingly, some advisors believe that part of the scams are created elsewhere and emailed from Africa to conceal its origin. The logic is that they require some sophistication in the victim's country financial system.

In my opinion, the first rule to avoid scams is self-discipline. Most scams tempt the victim with the possibility of making easy money or with conditions that somehow make them feel they are getting an advantage or additional safety in the deal. If you stick to correct business practices, you are generally safe. If in doubt, just ask. Ask your parents, friends, your bank officer or a lawyer. Don't think you are smart enough, there is always someone smarter.

The second advice applies to any deal, anywhere: know the mechanics of payments in your currency. Each currency has specific rules regarding money transfers, checks, cashiers checks, payment orders, credit cards, etc.

One example is the case that originate this thread: if you deposit a stranger's check in your account, the check can be returned up to 5 years later (!!) and the sum will be debited directly from your account.

Also, the checks could have been stolen (from the mail, for example). After the checks are returned and you are left without money and boat, how would you prove that you were not involved in the original robbery?

Other interesting features of the US financial system is that FED and CHIPS wire transfers can be reversed the same day they are effected (not easy, though). And we all know that credit card payments are too easy to reverse.

Even if you cashed a transfer or money order, there are instances in which you could be required to return the funds.

To make it short, it is very important to know how currency flows in order to reduce the chance that it flows from your pocket.

That said, a comment on being overcautious}: note that one should not assume that everything foreign (or African) is a scam. If we refuse a deal with a foreigner/stranger for no reason, we may be liable for discrimination. I think this also applies to the US and Europe, so be careful three times... and then be careful backwards!

Take care,

I had a friend in the shipping business put together a rough estimate for shipping an assembled H16 from Ohio to Portugal and he's pretty sure it will be at least three to four thousand dollars.
I haven't heard back from the potential customer for the last two days.
Jack