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rudderd locking mechanism #186921
08/04/09 08:24 AM
08/04/09 08:24 AM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 19
Tampa, FL
A
AV8RSailor Offline OP
stranger
AV8RSailor  Offline OP
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Posts: 19
Tampa, FL
In my continuing quest to resurect a derelict H16 I have come to my next hurdle: The rudder locking mechanism and cam on both rudder castings is shot. Replacing the cams does not look like a problem. One of them has already been drilled out and replaced with the screw insert. The problem is getting out the Delrin screw inside the casting. They are both frozen solid and one of them is broken off. How do I get them out?!?!?

As an aside, I've finished repairing the hulls and added two layers of glass tape to the keels using West System epoxy. They look and feel good. Next is painting them...

Antony Dalton
Tampa, FL


Antony Dalton
1981 Hobie 16 "Road Kill"
1994 Catalina 30 MKIII "Bliss"
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: rudderd locking mechanism [Re: AV8RSailor] #186932
08/04/09 11:19 AM
08/04/09 11:19 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
mmiller Offline
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mmiller  Offline
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Posts: 1,252
California
Discussion on Delrin screw replacement:

Delrin screw discussion

FAQ on cams and rudder adjustments:

http://www.hobiecat.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=467


Hobie Cat Forums
Matt Miller
Hobie Cat Company
Re: rudderd locking mechanism [Re: mmiller] #186952
08/04/09 01:39 PM
08/04/09 01:39 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 19
Tampa, FL
A
AV8RSailor Offline OP
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AV8RSailor  Offline OP
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Tampa, FL
Awsome! Thank you so much. Between you and the rest of the guys on the forum I will have "Road Kill" back on the water in no time.

Antony


Antony Dalton
1981 Hobie 16 "Road Kill"
1994 Catalina 30 MKIII "Bliss"
Re: rudderd locking mechanism [Re: AV8RSailor] #187282
08/06/09 09:48 PM
08/06/09 09:48 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 224
Cincinnati, Ohio
Tri_X_Troll Offline
enthusiast
Tri_X_Troll  Offline
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Posts: 224
Cincinnati, Ohio
I seem to have to do this every year........I think my lower castings are warped or highly worn though.

Keep them lubricated too once they're back together.


Ryan - H16 I prefer to go sailing because baseball, football, tennis, and golf only require 1 ball!
Re: rudderd locking mechanism [Re: Tri_X_Troll] #187691
08/12/09 07:39 AM
08/12/09 07:39 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 99
Virginia Beach
Sunvista Offline
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Sunvista  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 99
Virginia Beach
Just a follow up with the Delrin screw discussion link from Matt....the luggage scale I used to set the tension worked well except I set it to the upper range at 25 lbs which was too much and caused one of my cams to shear instead of kicking the rudder up. I backed off a full turn of the Delrin screw and it has worked well all summer. Wrapping the screw with teflon tape also worked out well. The screw is snug (after tapping out the rudder casting) but still turns easily. And I doubt the screw,lined with teflon, will ever freeze up again.

Re: rudderd locking mechanism [Re: Sunvista] #187720
08/12/09 12:14 PM
08/12/09 12:14 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,964
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brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Here's a great way to remove the Derlin screw, without risking damage to the threads.

Get the biggest, longest screwdriver you can find that will fit in the screw head.

Heat the screwdriver until it is very, very, very hot (such as, put the tip of the screwdriver in the flame of a BBQ grill for a few minutes).

When it's hot enough, immediately put it into the screw and push it in as the Derlin melts. Make sure it goes into the screw at least 1/2 inch. DO NOT turn the screwdriver while doing this.

After you've made this new slot in the screw, remove the screwdriver. Pour cold water over the screw so the plastic hardens. Place the screwdriver into some cold water (such as in a cooler with ice).

When the screw and screwdriver are sufficiently cold, insert the screwdriver and remove the screw. If the screw is really stuck, it helps to use a pair of vice grips on the shaft of the screwdriver to add leverage when turning.

The beauty of this method is, you don't destroy the screw (it can be re-used) OR the threads, and everything you need can be found on the beach at a typical Hobie event!

Mike

Re: rudderd locking mechanism [Re: brucat] #190475
09/07/09 05:59 PM
09/07/09 05:59 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 53
The Netherlands, Europe
flying_dutchman Offline
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The Netherlands, Europe
Im still facing some problems with my rudder cams. I dis-assembled all items - even delrin screws went easy - and replaced the rudder cams. My first problem seems to be the special shaft (splint ?) that should hold the cam and keep itself in place because compression is needed while assembling. Even new ones seems to get loose after a short while after which the rotating centre of the cam gets out of place. I intend to order special rudder cam pins (solid tight fit shaft with countersink head and countersink screw) to solve this problem. Or have them made locally (stainless steel). Looks like my castings are slightly worn out but testing with a 6 mm axle doesnt say so
Next problem is proper adjustment. When done as described in one of the previous replies to this topic I need to apply quite some pretension in order to keep my rudders in position at high speed and when hitting plants etc in the (sea)water. However when tested by hand the rudders kick up quite smooth and with the rudder cam in right position. So far so good. However when I want to release my rudders by lifting the helms when sitting on the trampoline the starboard rudder is no problem. But the portside rudder demands quite some force. When released the rudder cam is in the right position. I used WD40 and grease on silicon base. Can not find any reason for the large difference.


Happy sailing from The Netherlands!

Eddie

Hobie 16 (1992) # 99173 & CT11 - with spi
Re: rudderd locking mechanism [Re: flying_dutchman] #190696
09/10/09 07:40 AM
09/10/09 07:40 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 99
Virginia Beach
Sunvista Offline
journeyman
Sunvista  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 99
Virginia Beach
I'm not sure releasing the rudders by lifting the rudder arms or tiller crossbar is a good idea. You are putting upward lift or force on the weakest part of the plastic cam. When the rudders kick up they are putting forward thrust on the cam to rotate it. My rule of thumb is that if you can lift your crossbar at sea, your rudder locks are not properly adjusted. In your case the starboard rudder.

Last edited by Sunvista; 09/10/09 07:42 AM.
Re: rudderd locking mechanism [Re: Sunvista] #190815
09/11/09 09:01 AM
09/11/09 09:01 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
Pooh-Bah
mbounds  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
Originally Posted by Sunvista
I'm not sure releasing the rudders by lifting the rudder arms or tiller crossbar is a good idea. You are putting upward lift or force on the weakest part of the plastic cam. When the rudders kick up they are putting forward thrust on the cam to rotate it. My rule of thumb is that if you can lift your crossbar at sea, your rudder locks are not properly adjusted. In your case the starboard rudder.

That is incorrect.

Every racer pops their rudders this way - some guys can do it from the wire with their feet.

It's the only way to protect pricey EPO rudders from damage when coming into shore. I never let the rudders kick up on the bottom.
[Linked Image]

Re: rudderd locking mechanism [Re: mbounds] #190829
09/11/09 05:06 PM
09/11/09 05:06 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,582
“an island in the Pacific....
hobie1616 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
hobie1616  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

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Posts: 5,582
“an island in the Pacific....
Originally Posted by mbounds
It's the only way to protect pricey EPO rudders from damage when coming into shore. I never let the rudders kick up on the bottom.


Word.


US Sail Level 2 Instructor
US Sail Level 3 Coach
Re: rudderd locking mechanism [Re: hobie1616] #190832
09/11/09 06:03 PM
09/11/09 06:03 PM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 7
Panama City Beach, FL
Tim H16 Offline
stranger
Tim H16  Offline
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Posts: 7
Panama City Beach, FL
If I try to lift the rudder arms or tiller cross bar to unlock the rudders it works, but the cams do not rotate so I can not lock the rudders back down without manually rotating the cams first (usually on shore with a screwdriver). Whenever I hit a shallow area, the rudders kick up fine and the cams rotate so that I can easily relock the rudders down latter. Evidently, pulling up on the rudder arm affects the cam differently than when the rudder kicks up after it hits something.


Tim
'82 H16
Sail #88863 Blue Prism
Re: rudderd locking mechanism [Re: hobie1616] #190846
09/12/09 05:58 AM
09/12/09 05:58 AM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 53
The Netherlands, Europe
flying_dutchman Offline
journeyman
flying_dutchman  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 53
The Netherlands, Europe
Thanks guys. Sunvistas reply indeed amazed me a little bit but actually for me it's reality. Thus I damage my rudders ...
Our cat-club has oa. a number of Hobie Tigers and Foxes. For some strange reason they don't seem to have this problem, although system is in principle identical.
Got a spare H17 rudder assembly on which I'm going to do some tests at home. Ideal would we computer animation to determine angles & critical area. confused
But on the other hand: being the largest cat class world wide >110,000 pcs > 30 years it can not be necessary to invent the wheel again. So surely I must be overlooking something or at least doing not the right way..... crazy
Thanks for comments anyway !! smile


Happy sailing from The Netherlands!

Eddie

Hobie 16 (1992) # 99173 & CT11 - with spi
Re: rudderd locking mechanism [Re: hobie1616] #190849
09/12/09 08:01 AM
09/12/09 08:01 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 99
Virginia Beach
Sunvista Offline
journeyman
Sunvista  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 99
Virginia Beach
Still, they shouldn't pop up that easy. Nothing more annoying that hopping out on the wire, lifting the hot stick and having the crossbar pop a rudder up, or worse, the rudder arm comes up but the cam stays locked.

I don't have EPO rudders but was considering buying a set. Are they especially brittle or something? I always let the shore kick up my rudders.

Last edited by Sunvista; 09/12/09 08:09 AM.
Re: rudderd locking mechanism [Re: Tim H16] #190917
09/14/09 05:58 AM
09/14/09 05:58 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
Pooh-Bah
mbounds  Offline
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Detroit, MI
Originally Posted by Tim H16
If I try to lift the rudder arms or tiller cross bar to unlock the rudders it works, but the cams do not rotate so I can not lock the rudders back down without manually rotating the cams first (usually on shore with a screwdriver). Whenever I hit a shallow area, the rudders kick up fine and the cams rotate so that I can easily relock the rudders down latter. Evidently, pulling up on the rudder arm affects the cam differently than when the rudder kicks up after it hits something.


Your signature clued me in to why this is happening - an '82 boat does not have the rake-adjustable castings. It has the fixed rivet/pin in the upper casting that engages the rudder cam when the rudders are locked down.

What's happening with your rudders is that when the rudder is "locked down", the pin is not seated firmly in at the base of the hook on the top of the cam. When you lift the tiller arm, the pin bears against the end of the hook, the hook flexes, releasing the tiller arm, but not rotating the cam.

When you come in to the beach, the force of the bottom pushes the tip of the rudder aft, forcing the pin into the corner of the hook, releasing the tiller arm AND rotating the cam to the unlocked position.

If you put the boat up on wheels or a trailer, you can see this happening yourself. Lock the rudder down, then pull gently aft on the tip. You'll see the rudder castings move relative to each other (slightly) before the pressure on the tip increases significantly.

With properly adjusted / drilled rudders, the castings do not move realative to each other until the cam starts to rotate.

This is easily fixed with the rake-adjustable upper castings; less easily fixed by re-drilling the rudders.

Re: rudderd locking mechanism [Re: Sunvista] #190918
09/14/09 06:05 AM
09/14/09 06:05 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
Pooh-Bah
mbounds  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
Originally Posted by Sunvista
I don't have EPO rudders but was considering buying a set. Are they especially brittle or something? I always let the shore kick up my rudders.


They are certainly not as tough as the stock nylon rudders. They don't flex - that's why they handle so much better. They're essentially fiberglass(carbon) and have a gel-coat like outer "skin". Rocks will chip them. Sand will make the clear coating turn hazy. You don't want to wear them down to the fiber, either.

I don't know about you, but I'm not dragging my $250 (each) rudders along the bottom. It's too easy just to pop them up before you hit.

Re: rudderd locking mechanism [Re: mbounds] #190919
09/14/09 07:32 AM
09/14/09 07:32 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
_flatlander_ Offline
old hand
_flatlander_  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
Originally Posted by mbounds
Originally Posted by Tim H16
If I try to lift the rudder arms or tiller cross bar to unlock the rudders it works, but the cams do not rotate so I can not lock the rudders back down without manually rotating the cams first (usually on shore with a screwdriver). Whenever I hit a shallow area, the rudders kick up fine and the cams rotate so that I can easily relock the rudders down latter. Evidently, pulling up on the rudder arm affects the cam differently than when the rudder kicks up after it hits something.


Your signature clued me in to why this is happening - an '82 boat does not have the rake-adjustable castings. It has the fixed rivet/pin in the upper casting that engages the rudder cam when the rudders are locked down.

What's happening with your rudders is that when the rudder is "locked down", the pin is not seated firmly in at the base of the hook on the top of the cam. When you lift the tiller arm, the pin bears against the end of the hook, the hook flexes, releasing the tiller arm, but not rotating the cam.

When you come in to the beach, the force of the bottom pushes the tip of the rudder aft, forcing the pin into the corner of the hook, releasing the tiller arm AND rotating the cam to the unlocked position.

If you put the boat up on wheels or a trailer, you can see this happening yourself. Lock the rudder down, then pull gently aft on the tip. You'll see the rudder castings move relative to each other (slightly) before the pressure on the tip increases significantly.

With properly adjusted / drilled rudders, the castings do not move realative to each other until the cam starts to rotate.

This is easily fixed with the rake-adjustable upper castings; less easily fixed by re-drilling the rudders.
Matt, Excellent post/point! (There's so much much info on the adjustable castings an SO many people sailing boats without them) Do you think this bending of the cam hook may be related to too much tension on the cam locking spring? I've seen countless, newly replaced cams, with buggered up cam hooks. Can spring tension be an attributing factor? Or is this primarily a case of worn castings allowing slop?


John H16, H14
Re: rudderd locking mechanism [Re: mbounds] #190923
09/14/09 08:05 AM
09/14/09 08:05 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 99
Virginia Beach
Sunvista Offline
journeyman
Sunvista  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 99
Virginia Beach
Originally Posted by mbounds
When you lift the tiller arm, the pin bears against the end of the hook, the hook flexes, releasing the tiller arm, but not rotating the cam.

When you come in to the beach, the force of the bottom pushes the tip of the rudder aft, forcing the pin into the corner of the hook, releasing the tiller arm AND rotating the cam to the unlocked position.
HUH? You've just reworded my earlier post #190696. Up cam force bad....forward cam thrust good. In my case there was no slop so lifting or releasing the tiller arm didn't rotate the (chinzy plastic gusseted) cam...it just broke it off at the hook. One thing for certain, shearing a $15 plastic cam is clearly preferable to fracturing a $250 rudder. Either one will sit you on the beach though.

Re: rudderd locking mechanism [Re: hobie1616] #190930
09/14/09 11:16 AM
09/14/09 11:16 AM

X
xanderwess
Unregistered
xanderwess
Unregistered
X



Way cheaper to replace rudder cams than repair race rudders. The cams are super cheap anyway

Re: rudderd locking mechanism [Re: mbounds] #190942
09/14/09 02:31 PM
09/14/09 02:31 PM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 7
Panama City Beach, FL
Tim H16 Offline
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Tim H16  Offline
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Posts: 7
Panama City Beach, FL
Last year I overhauled my rudders by replacing the delrin screw, cams, etc., adding shims and redrilling the aft holes in the rudders. I tried using the templates for drilling but that did not solve the problem so I had to refill the holes with JB Weld several times and through trial and error was able to get them raked forward as much as possible with only about a 1/4" of movement foward/aft at the bottom of the blades.

Bill Mattson's May/June 1998 On the Wire "Raking Rudders, Correcting Helm on a Hobie 16" and David Hall's March 1997 On the Wire "Towards the "No Slop" Rudder" along with Gary Wilcox's April 1997 On the Wire "Rebuilding the Hobie Rudder Cam Assembly" articles were very useful.

Even though I have corrected the helm, slop and "break away" spring tension, the cams on my old style rudder castings will still not unlock when I lift the tiller arms (only when the bottom of the rudders are pulled back by hand or they hit bottom), maybe it would be best to upgrade them to some "newer style" used adjustable rudder castings. I may also try following the section in David Hall's article where he shows how using RTV and plastic wrap on the lower rudder casting (instead of the newer style adjuster screw 8032001) to fill the gap between the old style casting and the rudder may help push the fixed rivet/pin further into the cam so it will be seated firmly in at the base of the hook on the top of the cam.

If I replace the upper rudder casting with an adjustable upper rudder casting will I have to also replace the lower rudder casting with an adjustable lower rudder casting in order to get them to work together properly?


Tim
'82 H16
Sail #88863 Blue Prism
Re: rudderd locking mechanism [Re: Tim H16] #190955
09/14/09 04:40 PM
09/14/09 04:40 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
Pooh-Bah
mbounds  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
Originally Posted by Tim H16
If I replace the upper rudder casting with an adjustable upper rudder casting will I have to also replace the lower rudder casting with an adjustable lower rudder casting in order to get them to work together properly?


No. You really only need the upper casting.

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