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America's Cup - back to court #190091
09/03/09 09:52 AM
09/03/09 09:52 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline OP
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GGYC (BMWO) filed with the New York Supreme court on several points this morning (or last night). Copying from "Peelman" over at SA, here is the basic summary of pages of legal documents.


Quote

Key points from the GGYC statement -

Our reasons are clear: Recent actions by Société Nautique de Genève (SNG) to unfairly manipulate the rules continue their disturbing pattern of misconduct as Trustee of the oldest trophy in sports.

Specifically, with today’s motion GGYC has asked the Court to direct that:
• GGYC’s challenge vessel needs only to “not exceed” its challenge certificate dimensions, and that a precise match of dimensions is not required by the Deed.
• When measuring length on load water-line (LWL), rudders shall not be included. SNG is trying to subvert over a century of America’s Cup practice, as well as standard ISAF measurement procedures.
• LWL length shall be measured with the maximum weight that the competing vessels will carry while racing.
• The match shall be conducted in accordance with the ISAF rules (except for rules restricting vessel design, including racing rules 49-54 which the court has already held are in conflict with the Deed), and that any changes to those rules can only be made with the consent of GGYC and with the required approval of ISAF.
• With regard to the secret agreement SNG has with ISAF, that the court-ordered confidential treatment be removed so that it can be made public.

Today GGYC also filed an appeal of the court’s July 29, 2009 decision.


One of the surprises is that there is no contention about the venue - RAK in the United Arab Emirates...we kind of thought this might come up about how the deed specifies the match be held on an "ocean course free of headlands" while RAK is in a gulf and it could be argued that the arabian peninsula has an affect on the wind around RAK....but anyway...

The biggest point here is one of the recent rulings by the New York court granted Alinghi the absurd ability to change the rules at will up to the second before the match - that particular ruling will apparently be appealed by BMWO as part of this action.

In addition, SNG stated several times in court that they will not use the rules to DSQ BMWO - but their measurement rule that was published several weeks ago includes an unsual provision that the rudders will be included in the waterline length measurement. This is a particular issue for BMWO because their hull sterns are overhung (suspended above the water) forward of the rudders. By now including the rudders in the measurement, it increases the measured waterline length of the boat (there are not many instances of measurement rules including rudders in sailing long history).

This whole rule thing gets particularly weird because SNG copied the measurement rules from the 1988 DoG match when Conner's 60' catamaran went up against Mercury Bay (New Zealand). That campaign was also run by Tom Ehman - the same guy running much of BMWO's current operation. Those rules, while not specifically stating that the rudders were part of the measurement, established that water line length was measured between the furthest fore and aft planes where the yacht breaks the water line plane (emphasis is mine). The title of that section is called "hull measurement" but this detail was omitted in the published Alinghi rule along with all the procedures for setting up an impartial measurement committee staffed with personnel from both teams and the sport's international governing body. (Side Note: Alinghi has also stated that they will appoint a measurer and a "guy to hold the other end of the tape" and there is no need for BMWO to have someone on the measurement team.) The boats that ran in the 1988 match were completely unaffected by whether or not the rudder was included in the measurement so it's likely that there was no specific intent to measure them in some funny way. This clearly has a significant bearing on the current vessels that are set to contend for the cup in February and Alinghi has confirmed that the measurement rule is to include the rudders. By using these rules, Alinghi intends to either DSQ the BMWO boat or at least force some sort of extensive and expensive redesign on part of BMWO in the short 5 months leading up to the match in order to meet the rules.

But don't forget, Alinghi contended in court repeatedly that they would not use the rules to DSQ BMWO's boat.

Another sticky point in the new rules is that Alinghi contends that the BMWO boat needs to meet exactly the 90' waterline length and 90' beam specified in the challenge certificate. The wording in the deed is not entirely cut and dry on this issue but it does mention "which dimensions are not to be exceeded" in reference to the two sailing vessels. The BMWO trimaran has at least three different mast, rig, and sail combinations of pretty significant dimensional and weight differences. It is unclear exactly what these do to the waterline length of the boat but it's conceivable that they designed it so that the heaviest rig puts the boat at the limit of 90' while the other rigs see a slight drop in waterline length measurement. While it's conceivable to add ballast to the BMWO trimaran to mitigate the lesser weight of the smaller rigs, Alinghi did make one change to the 1988 rule stating that ballast used to make measurement cannot be moved or removed.

When Alinghi first showed their vessel to have a gasoline driven hydraulic system, they stated that this was an "open design competition" as well as a sailboat race. They then chucked rules 49 through 52 in the RRS to pretty much allow anything (power/computer assisted trimming/steering, friction reducing ejections from the boat into the water, movable ballast, etc.). However, the haven't sought to really make this an open design competition. Instead, Alinghi has used the rules to paint BMWO into a technical corner and make their entire design concept as unqualified as possible. Alinghi hasn't made this an "open design competition" and hopefully this round in the courts will set this back to a fair match.


Jake Kohl
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: America's Cup - back to court [Re: Jake] #190098
09/03/09 10:32 AM
09/03/09 10:32 AM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 266
UK
Cheshirecatman Offline
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I think this ceased to become a yacht race some time ago. I am sure if you were pedantic enough in measuring Alinghi it would also fail to meet the 'exact' measurements. Also, with load/ballast being in their normal position during measurement, even any member of the crew not in the position when measured could be protested(?). Could any of the boats then actually be sailed?
If Alinghi has stated they will not use the rules to DSQ BMWO then surely they cannot DSQ them for a measurement rule can they? If so can they be held in contempt of court with appropriate penalties?

I'm sticking to round the cans under SCHRS.

Cheshirecatman


Re: America's Cup - back to court [Re: Cheshirecatman] #190100
09/03/09 10:36 AM
09/03/09 10:36 AM
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TurboCat Offline
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Too many lawyers and not enough racing

Re: America's Cup - back to court [Re: TurboCat] #190102
09/03/09 10:43 AM
09/03/09 10:43 AM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 171
Cary, NC
Storz Offline
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Originally Posted by TurboCat
Too many lawyers and not enough racing


Agreed. Anyone actually think we'll see a race in Feb?


Ryan
1983 Isotope
Re: America's Cup - back to court [Re: TurboCat] #190103
09/03/09 10:43 AM
09/03/09 10:43 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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So this is how rich people entertain themselves. Too bad our tax dollars are being spent to hear this idiocy.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: America's Cup - back to court [Re: David Ingram] #190111
09/03/09 11:23 AM
09/03/09 11:23 AM
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Palm Beach County
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Ted Turner would never let this happen!


Mike Shappell
www.themanshed.com
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G-Cat 5.7 - Current Boat
NACRA 5.2 - early 70's

Re: America's Cup - back to court [Re: TurboCat] #190115
09/03/09 11:43 AM
09/03/09 11:43 AM

A
andrewscott
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andrewscott
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A



Originally Posted by TurboCat
Too many lawyers and not enough racing

Lawyers only represent greedy people....

I was asked to remove this comment. i feel i should explain it vs. remove it.

Lawyers only represent people who want/need legal services.. (some greedy, some not, some looking for windfall results, others only justice)..

(admittedly the lawyers get paid, some vey well to do it.. and are happy to do it).. but this was an attempt to say ... "dont hate the lawyers for doing a service"

Last edited by andrewscott; 09/03/09 01:24 PM.
Re: America's Cup - back to court [Re: ] #190118
09/03/09 12:02 PM
09/03/09 12:02 PM
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brucat Offline
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I only have two things to say.

First, why am I not surprised? I would have probably been shocked if this didn't happen (and if this is the end of it).

Secondly, the "headlands" issue would probably only make sense for a lawyer to try to contend. Has anyone ever sailed offshore in Newport (you know, the place the Americas Cup lived forever)? The islands, bay and river entrances make that place nothing but a series of headlands. That says nothing about Brenton's Reef. To get decent racing, you need to go at least 2 miles offshore.

Mike

Re: America's Cup - back to court [Re: David Ingram] #190122
09/03/09 12:05 PM
09/03/09 12:05 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline OP
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Originally Posted by David Ingram
So this is how rich people entertain themselves. Too bad our tax dollars are being spent to hear this idiocy.


(and your bonus)


Jake Kohl
Re: America's Cup - back to court [Re: Jake] #190124
09/03/09 12:09 PM
09/03/09 12:09 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 531
Lake Murray SC
FasterDamnit Offline
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Our tax dollars? Only if you live in New York state.


Race cheap, race faster, Damnit!

E-Scow
24' ULDB

18HT hulls plus Gcat 5.7 rig = 18GT!
Re: America's Cup - back to court [Re: FasterDamnit] #190126
09/03/09 12:20 PM
09/03/09 12:20 PM

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andrewscott
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andrewscott
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Originally Posted by FasterDamnit
Our tax dollars? Only if you live in New York state.

aren't there fees to file appeals? and other fee's to cover the costs of the courts?

Re: America's Cup - back to court [Re: ] #190132
09/03/09 12:37 PM
09/03/09 12:37 PM
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Posts: 531
Lake Murray SC
FasterDamnit Offline
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Umm,

New York Supreme Court.

Not a federal court.


Race cheap, race faster, Damnit!

E-Scow
24' ULDB

18HT hulls plus Gcat 5.7 rig = 18GT!
Re: America's Cup - back to court [Re: ] #190133
09/03/09 12:47 PM
09/03/09 12:47 PM
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Portland, Maine
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ThunderMuffin Offline
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To me, its worth making sure the rules are nailed down so we don't have a case where someone wins the race and then the court hands the cup to the other team.

I'm all for getting the slippery swiss team to put their cards on the table and sack-up enough to be crystal clear about the rules governing the race.

Otherwise it becomes a sham of an event - not worthy of paying attention to.

Re: America's Cup - back to court [Re: ThunderMuffin] #190135
09/03/09 01:06 PM
09/03/09 01:06 PM
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Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Originally Posted by Undecided

Otherwise it becomes a sham of an event - not worthy of paying attention to.


Too late.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: America's Cup - back to court [Re: ThunderMuffin] #190136
09/03/09 01:10 PM
09/03/09 01:10 PM
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Posts: 266
UK
Cheshirecatman Offline
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Originally Posted by Undecided

I'm all for getting the slippery swiss team to put their cards on the table and sack-up enough to be crystal clear about the rules governing the race.



Isn't this the main issue?

Cheshirecatman

Re: America's Cup - back to court [Re: Jake] #190138
09/03/09 01:13 PM
09/03/09 01:13 PM
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Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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David Ingram  Offline
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Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by David Ingram
So this is how rich people entertain themselves. Too bad our tax dollars are being spent to hear this idiocy.


(and your bonus)


Not anymore.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: America's Cup - back to court [Re: Cheshirecatman] #190140
09/03/09 02:22 PM
09/03/09 02:22 PM
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Portland, Maine
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ThunderMuffin Offline
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Originally Posted by Cheshirecatman
Originally Posted by Undecided

I'm all for getting the slippery swiss team to put their cards on the table and sack-up enough to be crystal clear about the rules governing the race.



Isn't this the main issue?

Cheshirecatman


Getting the rules on paper - is paramount to any legitimate competition.

Rules that are not recorded or communicated to all participating parties is tantamount to a sham dog and pony show - something that Alinghi has been trying to make out of the cup since they accepted the CNEV challenge.

Its sickening and I hope EB falls off the top of his capsized deathtrap.

Re: America's Cup - back to court [Re: ThunderMuffin] #190148
09/03/09 03:22 PM
09/03/09 03:22 PM
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I really fail to understand why anyone would put themselves through all this agro 'just' for a bloody boat race. For the price of the sheets on one of those things, you could buy yourself a new F18 and go and race the best in the world.

I guess that I should assume that its not about a boat race any more - it a business that happens to involve boats.

The best thing would be for the Oracle lot to say - ' sod it Ernesto, keep your cup, we are going to sail something else' the AC could then take a break until someone wants to make it a boat race again

Last edited by TEAMVMG; 09/03/09 03:25 PM.

Paul

teamvmg.weebly.com
Re: America's Cup - back to court [Re: TEAMVMG] #190153
09/03/09 04:14 PM
09/03/09 04:14 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
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Originally Posted by TEAMVMG
For the price of the sheets on one of those things, you could buy yourself a new F18 and go and race the best in the world.



I guess that I should assume that its not about a boat race any more - it a business that happens to involve boats.



My guess would be a few F-18s.

It's not about a race or business, it's about to rich guys with oversized egos. But that's what the AC has been about since it began , just newer faces taking it a little farther. In the big picture , none of this is new. It's just exposed more because of today's technology. You just know more about it,faster.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: America's Cup - back to court [Re: TEAMVMG] #190163
09/03/09 05:11 PM
09/03/09 05:11 PM
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New Hampshire, USA
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Originally Posted by TEAMVMG
I really fail to understand why anyone would put themselves through all this agro 'just' for a bloody boat race. For the price of the sheets on one of those things, you could buy yourself a new F18 and go and race the best in the world.

I guess that I should assume that its not about a boat race any more - it a business that happens to involve boats.

The best thing would be for the Oracle lot to say - ' sod it Ernesto, keep your cup, we are going to sail something else' the AC could then take a break until someone wants to make it a boat race again

Well when the little ac was taken from the c-class and made into a F18 event Steve Clark and a few others jumped back in and formed the I4C to replace it. I know that the little ac was run once, but has it seen the light of day since then? If LE walks away, which I do not think that he will, who would step up to challenge for it next?


Tom Siders
A-Cat USA-79
Tornado US775
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