The easiest would be C, but it is a known problem that although it's procedurally correct to fly a class flag over a signal flag to make it applicable only to that class, it has the potential to create confusion if other classes see the C flag but not the class flag over it. Again, really only an issue if the starting boat is near the gate (which happens all the time in our classes).

Anyway, there are a number of flags with specific meanings in the RRS. There are 26 letters in the alphabet. Pick one that isn't used for something in the RRS.

I agree, standardizing would help, especially since a lot of clubs still don't buy full flag sets and only maintain the bare minimum (or less).

Mike

Second Sub:


Since 1st sub is used for general recall and 3rd sub is now commonly used for RC's intention to run another race.

Since your are "substituting" a new weather mark.

Well ..........

Since Mr Matt Bounds and yourself are the two most senior Race Officers and are well known to US Sailing could the two of you take this "issue" to the US Sailing for the rest of us and obtain a official suggestion/ruling from the US Sailing Rules Committee????? This seems to be the best solution vs stopping the racing, have everyone "Bobbing up and down" for awhile, while the race course is re-configured .... (I hate bobbing up and down!!!)

Please, O', Please, O' Please ....

Harry

Been there, done that. As Matt and I have noted, all of this is great on paper, but tends to fall apart on the water. Once you have 4-6 fleets on the same course, especially with the wide variation in talent within those fleets (leaders at the gate while last place is still going to weather), change marks become useless in a practical sense.

This could work well when you're running 2-3 fleets, so long as the course length and strength of the fleets keeps the fleets separated from one another.

No one is saying not to do it, but they are not comfortable with the idea. While I'm open to try new things, I'm learning to be more conservative to avoid abandoning races because I've gotten "too cute." Haven't had to do it yet, don't want to start now...

BTW, assuming there's wind, there's no bobbing at my regattas. I sometimes need to force myself to slow down so people can have a break between races.

Mike

First time I have done this RC boat thing but that is what I saw. The PRO's solution kept the first fleet racing (granted that the 17 fleet was small and faster then the next starters the 16's)

So I am a bit confused... Matt seems to say... no changes in the SI's are needed. You think an additional line in the SI's would be needed. What am I missing?

I think everyone agrees that telling the racers about this mark change strategy before hand is a win for everyone.

By the book, I think it needs to be in the SIs. Unless you consider a starting mark to be a rounding mark, you wouldn't comply with RRS 33 by flying C at the start. This doesn't seem to be the intent of the RRS as I read it (otherwise, why would they say "starting mark" vs "rounding mark" vs "finishing mark"?).

This is especially true since you'll want to use something other than the C flag, and you'll need to explain that (in writing, not just at the skippers meeting, ISAF cases for that too).

As Matt mentioned, this was mentioned in a National RO exam (there were a LOT of other problems presented with that case, the flag was only part of the issue). I think it just highlighted a point where too much is too much...

Mike

Got it... thanks

It proved to be the best multi fleet solution that I have seen.

One other question... the 16's were insistent that the offset mark was just not needed... It made no difference to them.

Spin boat fleets really seem to want them...Is the need for an offset resolving to spin fleets primarily?

Primarily for spin boats, but can help unis and sloops if the fleets are large.

My solution is usually to have a long weather mark with an offset for the spin boats, and a short weather mark without an offset for everyone else (or something to that effect).

Mike

In the preamble to the Race Signals section of the RRS (inside back cover) it says:

Under "Changing the Next Leg" in Race signals, it says:

So theoretically, there doesn't need to be anything in the sailing instructions - even at the start.

However, since it is a rarely used application (change at the start) it was wise of John Macielag to call the competitors over and explain it to them before he did it. That's probably better than putting it in the SIs (If you want to keep a secret from the sailors . . . )

The whole point of racing is to have fair racing, not to confuse the competitors. The starting signals should not be a test of their rule book knowledge.

Ok .....

Would you then agree that at the "Skipper's" Meeting to ask or show:

1) If you see the "C" Flag flying from a Mark Boat standing by a course mark, what does it mean?

2) If you see the "C" flag flying OVER a Class Flag from the COMMITTEE Boat, what does it mean???

Would that be exceptable???

Harry

"The whole point of racing is to have fair racing, not to confuse the competitors." We all agree on that...

I've seen 2nd Sub and 3rd Sub used at different regattas to mean, more races coming.

Harry, I would expect anything this unusual to at least be covered at the skippers meeting. By the book, it needs to be in the SIs if you're using a different flag. I like Matt's view on the description of flag C in Race Signals, but as Matt and I stated, we would need to be careful about adding confusion, especially near a gate.

Especially at youth regattas, I always take a C, M, and S flag to the skippers meeting and hold them up one at a time, and ask, "What does this flag mean, and where would you expect to see it?" Usually a hush falls over the crowd, then I stare directly at the (paid) coaches...

Using L on the water and making sure everyone is on the same page is always a viable option, and is an excellent idea. There are some things to be careful about, such as being sure you don't say something that could be construed as a change to the SIs (unless the SIs speak to this), and generally being sure the players don't get in the way of finishers while trying to hear you speak.

Mike

I find my understanding of flags to be significantly lacking. Example: I thought the RC had shortened course and so I finished. Immediately, the racer behind me hailed "one more time around boys" or something to that effect. We undid our string, rounded the leeward mark in about 10th instead of first, now half a lap behind. Made it back up, but thats another story. Had I know what the flag meant I might have built a big enough lead to actually correct out.

Harry,

You coming to Pimpin / Qualifier?

Not sure if I'm reading your post correctly, but per RRS 32.2, when S is displayed, that becomes the finish line.

Many years ago, S would be displayed at the mark prior to where the race was going to be finished. Some people are sill a few rule books behind...

Mike

Also, Mike - if you're starting a race while another class is going through the gate (directly upwind of the signal boat), you've got issues other than confusion over a course change.

Actually, you'd want the class going through the gate to go to the change mark, too, but the traffic jam you just created is guaranteed to have someone gnawing on your ear later.

It seems we have developed a solution to a problem that as racers we are happy and satisfied w/ but we can not actually make it meet the official rules as they are currently written. Are we in a "Catch-22"????

We are trying to take full advantage of the new starting sequence rules and set a proper race course when a windshift has occured while some competitors/classes are actually still on the course racing, but there is a class that could be started, and is waiting .... This is turning out to be an interesting dilemma.

I can see this problem happening more often in the future as more and more regatta's are using the new starting sequence w/ individual starts (vs a "continous rolling start") and seperate start/finish lines. It does allow more time racing w/ less time wasted for course changes/re-set(s) due to windshifts. And I actually feel that the way John handled the problem was excellent w/ the least amount of confusion to the racers. Basically let the racers on the course finish the course as they started but being able to correct the courses for the wind shift and a class ready to start the next race without holding up the racing.

If I was still in manufacturing we would call this a "in process change" {Now if it was a long course, either in number of laps or time you would then conduct a course change w/ a mark boat and "change" flag at a mark.}


Matt, Could I put you "on the spot" as HCA-NA Director of Racing and have you recommend a provisional "code flag" that will be used at all HCA-NA Regatta's to be flown only on the committee boat to indicate that the next class ready to start has a new windward mark due to a windshift ... while the other classes can finish their race without the confusion of a course change having to be done and also not having to allow the race course to completely "clear" so a course change can be done. As each fleet finishes and completes their race upon starting they race to a properly re-set windward mark.

Or we can start to educate the racers on the "if you see a change flag flying over a class flag in a starting sequence ...."

Everyone gets to keep moving ... no bobbing!!!!

Personally I'm not sure which solution is best but I'm leaning to the "C" over the "class" as it doesn't really rquire a rule modification/change, only education .... either way it's a good idea for an article in the Hotline or Sailing World

Harry

Matt,

The scenario you described (classes running into one another on the course) happends anyway when you get beyond 2 or 3 classes on the same course. Sure, we can minimize it with timing (wait for the lead class to be around the gate before sending the 3rd start), but once you get past 3 fleets, it's almost impossible to avoid all issues. While dual weather marks helps, they all need to go through the gate eventually...

Other than holding everyone back to reset the course, do you have a better option?

Mike

Timing becomes exquisite with 4 or more starts. Or - you can go back to the mid-course line, which works really well in this situation (more than 3 starts).

Matt,

I'm not sure if I follow you ....

Let's use the example of 4 classes on the same course .... if the course is set to be (2)laps/45 mins long and each class is started 6 mins apart. That means each leg should take approximently 11 mins. this means as the 1st class/fleet rounds the windward mark the 3rd class/fleet has yet to start. By the time the last class/fleet is starting you will have boats sailing on both the up-wind leg and downwind leg. Now the classes/fleets will stretch out. Now there is a windshift .... you will have no leg w/o boats on it preventing you from flying the "C" flag and moving the the windward mark. Let's say the first fleet finished, they will have to wait until the last class/fleet rounds the windward mark until it can be reset due to the windshift. By my rough calculations I project that the finished first fleet can be waiting possibly 15 or 20 mins for the course to be reset until the 4th class/fleet rounds/clear the windward mark for the second time.

I'm not sure how much you gain by locating the committee boat in the center of the course for a upwind finish as you will still have boats spread out on both upwind and downwind legs thus preventing the RC from effecting a course change. Maybe 1/2 the time for the windward beat???

This does get to be a very interesting problem when you add the condition of "not stopping the racing".

The more I think about the problem ... I believe you had the correct (and only) solution with the "C" OVER "class" flags that is currently allowed according to the RRS's

Now we just have to make all the racers awhere of this rule ... just like any other rule or change to the rules.

Note: One of the most recieved comments after the races was "We never waited more then a couple of minutes between races, I didn't even have time to eat my sandwich" (Rondo) It was stated w/ a smile and a tone of amazement .... on Sat, 5hrs/5races .... Sun, 4hrs/4races + a 5th for the H17's who started 1st on both days since it was their divisional championship.

Harry

You're misunderstanding the problem I was addressing, Harry.

The problem - having a start when a previous class is going the gate (when the gate is located directly upwind of the signal boat), thus creating significant interference between the two classes.

The "old school" solution when you've got more than four classes is to have the start/finish line mid-course, so that boats going through the gate don't interefere with classes still starting. However, this type of course is harder to manage in shifty wind.

Typically, we try to have 12 minute upwind legs on a 45 minute race. Downwind legs take less time, especially for spinnaker boats and the difference is more pronouced as the wind velocity increases.

With 5 minute "rolling" starts, you can easily get 4 classes off without interference at the gate (gate directly upwind of the signal boat). If you have a significant shift, you can signal a change to the boats starting with the "C" over class flag and then to the boats already on the course with a "C" flag at the gate. It requires you to be on your toes as a race officer, a reliance on your timer to keep things going in the "back" of the signal boat and a mark boat operator that knows what they're doing.

It is cool when you can pull something like that off - and all the competitors get it.