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Tornado class regrouping. #192825
10/07/09 03:41 AM
10/07/09 03:41 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
The Tornado class /ITA have rebuilt the class website: http://www.tornado-class.org/

There is a pretty interesting interview with Darren Bundock there under the "News" section. I also found the AGM 2009 notes very interesting. Especially the fact that the F18 class is working with the Tornado class to have the Tornado reinstated as the olympic multihull.
Other interesting notes from the AGM is the focus on weekend sailors (as Roland Gabler put it: "We are all weekend sailors now") and the need for more active boats/sailors.
One design boat and sails are discussed and lots of other interesting stuff.

Interview with Darren:
http://www.tornado-class.org/news/articles/2009/on-the-wire-with-darren-bundock.htm

2009 AGM notes:
http://www.tornado-class.org/news/articles/2009/2009-agm-minutes.htm

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Tornado class regrouping. [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #192890
10/07/09 07:30 PM
10/07/09 07:30 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 55
Ft Myers Beach, FL
walkefmb Offline
journeyman
walkefmb  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 55
Ft Myers Beach, FL
Thanks for the watchful eye on this one. Sometimes I forget to check the pulse on this patient


cedar tornado classic,
sunfish,
1972 morgan 27
optidad
Re: Tornado class regrouping. [Re: walkefmb] #192896
10/07/09 09:18 PM
10/07/09 09:18 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
****

In fact... they blame ONE GUY.... the former class president for their woes. Now that he is gone... ISAF recognizes what a mistake it was to dump the Tornado!

This is a complete load of crap.

Bundy, Carolyn Roland etc did not want to show up at ISAF and schmooz... (They had campaigns to run... They had professional racing circuits to start and compete in, They had the clout to leverage their elite olympic status for lots of pro sailing gigs. Grandfield was a one man show for Tornados at ISAF .... on his dime!

A new found recognition that this politicking WAS important is self serving. This is just ignorant considering the years of snide comments that Grandfield endured by these and other well know pro sailors in the class. He was not an Olympic caliber sailor... In FACT he was that weekend sailor, Roland now speaks of, who stepped up to play and knew he would be dead last at some events. But he spent an enormous amount of energy working for the class... cleaning up after the children. He did not stop these elite sailors from going to ISAF meetings to represent the class.

Look at the indefensible actions that he had to clean up with ISAF for these entitled prima donnas!

Change class rules to add spinaker... Outcome... maintained Olympic status obsoleted the local fleets boats.

expensive private Alu mast program for medal winners... Not a level playing field... soln one design Carbon mast for next cycle.

Proprietary cuben fiber for medal winners another not level playing field... Soln, F18 partnership on approved sail materials.

Finally, you have a situation where an entirely new sail magically appears for the China games. Two cycles that look like someone trying to game the system gets you a reputation. ....

Yeah Grandfield finally snapped when this went south. ... I give him credit for sticking with it till the bitter end. I know he was working for at least 4 years to back stop the children's class. I know how little support he got from the pro's. As a dues member... I know how the class was run and for whom... I spoke with Mike and got the facts of life read to me by him. I supported his actions in dealing with the children.

When you operate for your own self interest... and ignore the warnings of the gathering ISAF **** storm and then throw more gas onto the fire... with a new sail at the Olympics... What do you expect?

Once the Tornado was finally tossed out
WE JUST NEED THE SCAPEGOATs. ....

"Its the **** T class president and those morons of ISAF that killed multihull sailing in the Olympics".

The fact of the matter is the former professional Tornado class Sailor's collective behavior was the reason that ISAF could make the mistake that they did. It was their ignorance and arrogant, "our **** doesn't stink", attitude that is to blame.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Tornado class regrouping. [Re: Mark Schneider] #192902
10/08/09 12:46 AM
10/08/09 12:46 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 757
japan
erice Offline
old hand
erice  Offline
old hand

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 757
japan
know nothing about tornado sailing

but a lot of that seems to ring too true


eric e
1982 nacra 5.2 - 2158
2009 weta tri - 294
Re: Tornado class regrouping. [Re: erice] #192905
10/08/09 01:52 AM
10/08/09 01:52 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 16
AUS
Bundy Offline
stranger
Bundy  Offline
stranger

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 16
AUS
Hi Mark,

Not sure who you claim is solely blaming Mike Grandfield? I was a great supporter of Mike over the years and he put in an enormous amount of work for the class.

I do however believe he was not the best person to represent the class at ISAF meetings and I think Mike will agree to that. Yes. He was left to defend the class and this is the sailors fault.

I do believe Mike had to go if the class wanted any chance to become Olympic again.

The class made him a Commodore of Honor after all.

I don't agree with a lot of your other comments.

Sail fast and have fun
Bundy

Re: Tornado class regrouping. [Re: Bundy] #192906
10/08/09 03:14 AM
10/08/09 03:14 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,382
Essex, UK
Jalani Offline
veteran
Jalani  Offline
veteran

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,382
Essex, UK
Mark, I am prepared to believe that you are genuinely unaware of the huge amount of groundwork and selfless effort put in by a lot of T (many non-olympic)and non-T sailors in the background to rectify the ISAF debacle. Mistakes WERE made, many very good things were done. At the end of the day the ISAF decision could only be analysed out as as the result of egos, self-interest and back-room double dealing i.e politics.
Mike acted as he saw fit at the time. With hindsight it wasn't his finest hour. C'est la vie!


John Alani
___________
Stealth F16s GBR527 and GBR538
Re: Tornado class regrouping. [Re: Mark Schneider] #192916
10/08/09 07:30 AM
10/08/09 07:30 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,203
uk
TEAMVMG Offline
veteran
TEAMVMG  Offline
veteran

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,203
uk
I was a member of the I T A when the first ballot came along for the adoption of double trapeze. Everyone that i knew was voting in favour, but it got knocked back because the German class assoc had a shed load of members and they all voted against.
Since then, it seems[ to a non-member] that these sorts of changes have gone ahead at a fair old pace.
Is it the influence of the top flight sailors that has brought this about? If so, surely their influence has been a good thing as far as staying attractive to ISAF?
I have always thought that the ITA, under Granfield's chair, has been a canny class politicaly, and has done well to keep a dated,expensive class at the forefront of our sport.


Paul

teamvmg.weebly.com
Re: Tornado class regrouping. [Re: Jalani] #192917
10/08/09 07:43 AM
10/08/09 07:43 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Hm, reason I posted the links was the new initative, drive and focus I could read in there. I think there is a lot of good stuff happening and I know I would like to see the Tornado reinstated as the olympic multihull.

I dont neccesarily agree with all of the ideas and I have my opinion on some of the more prominent personalities, but it is all water under the brigde now. No point in lingering there.
What is important is that there is a strong will to refresh the class, bring in more sailors and not roll over to die. I for one will always be very close to getting back onto that boat.

Re: Tornado class regrouping. [Re: Mark Schneider] #192956
10/08/09 12:25 PM
10/08/09 12:25 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
veteran
Luiz  Offline
veteran

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
<****

In fact... they blame ONE GUY.... the former class president for their woes. Now that he is gone... ISAF recognizes what a mistake it was to dump the Tornado!

This is a complete load of crap.

Bundy, Carolyn Roland etc did not want to show up at ISAF and schmooz... (They had campaigns to run... They had professional racing circuits to start and compete in, They had the clout to leverage their elite olympic status for lots of pro sailing gigs. Grandfield was a one man show for Tornados at ISAF .... on his dime!

A new found recognition that this politicking WAS important is self serving. This is just ignorant considering the years of snide comments that Grandfield endured by these and other well know pro sailors in the class. He was not an Olympic caliber sailor... In FACT he was that weekend sailor, Roland now speaks of, who stepped up to play and knew he would be dead last at some events. But he spent an enormous amount of energy working for the class... cleaning up after the children. He did not stop these elite sailors from going to ISAF meetings to represent the class.

Look at the indefensible actions that he had to clean up with ISAF for these entitled prima donnas!

Change class rules to add spinaker... Outcome... maintained Olympic status obsoleted the local fleets boats.

expensive private Alu mast program for medal winners... Not a level playing field... soln one design Carbon mast for next cycle.

Proprietary cuben fiber for medal winners another not level playing field... Soln, F18 partnership on approved sail materials.

Finally, you have a situation where an entirely new sail magically appears for the China games. Two cycles that look like someone trying to game the system gets you a reputation. ....

Yeah Grandfield finally snapped when this went south. ... I give him credit for sticking with it till the bitter end. I know he was working for at least 4 years to back stop the children's class. I know how little support he got from the pro's. As a dues member... I know how the class was run and for whom... I spoke with Mike and got the facts of life read to me by him. I supported his actions in dealing with the children.

When you operate for your own self interest... and ignore the warnings of the gathering ISAF **** storm and then throw more gas onto the fire... with a new sail at the Olympics... What do you expect?

Once the Tornado was finally tossed out
WE JUST NEED THE SCAPEGOATs. ....

"Its the **** T class president and those morons of ISAF that killed multihull sailing in the Olympics".

The fact of the matter is the former professional Tornado class Sailor's collective behavior was the reason that ISAF could make the mistake that they did. It was their ignorance and arrogant, "our **** doesn't stink", attitude that is to blame.


I don't think the problem can be atributed to the class or to issues with adjustment to the new rig and technologies. Looking back, there is not much the class could have done to avoid it.

It was an irrational decision by ISAF. Even they know that.

Luiz
Re: Tornado class regrouping. [Re: Jalani] #192957
10/08/09 12:27 PM
10/08/09 12:27 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
John

Yes I am aware that after the ISAF disaster many prominent and dedicated cat sailors worked very hard to repair the image, relationships and equipment rules. That does not prevent these same sailors for taking responsibility for the previous 8 years which led to this mess.

Bundy,
You wrote
Quote
He was left to defend the class and this is the sailors fault.


That is one of my points.

The fact that you were a great supporter of Mike also speaks to the huge need for this support for Mike over the years. The fact is that a prominent faction of the class worked openly and behind the scenes to fire/oust him over many of the issues that I listed. ISAF forced the class to deal with the level playing field issues.

You have a unique first hand perspective since your old partner, John Forbes, led the class before Mike and your perspective can inform the next generation of leadership.

We agree that Mike was the only face that interacted with ISAF. Why? Unlike the other Olympic classes... the elite Tornado sailors who retired and had relationships with the ISAF and MNA powers did not continue to support and represent the class. They were not there to schmooze and make the case that the Tornado and multihull were the best of best. Contrast the Tornado to the Star, Laser, Finn. Those classes had old guys who carried the flag for the class. That is a collective failure of the class and has not been addressed.

Had Mike also been an elite sailor like John... would things have been different in the class and at ISAF?

Bundy, I did not pick sides in my list of T class ISAF issues.. The fact is that these were issues for ISAF. ISAF takes the stand that the playing field for the athletes MUST BE LEVEL. Debating the merits of any of those issues is not the point... if it looks like a duck and squawks like a duck...... It doesn't matter if the DNA proves it's a goose.... ISAF had ongoing issues and the Tornado Class had one person to represent them and the class had strong issues and factions to deal with. I like TEAMVMG think Mike did a good job keeping a head above water but the global issues were not resolved.

I agree that Mike's tenure had come to an end and new faces were needed.

My point is the Tornado class sailors should acknowledge the mistakes of the past and not just white wash the past and move on without being responsible. Their leadership in F18, A Class, Hobie 16 and Tornado sailing will be essential in getting back to the games in some multihull.

John wrote:
Quote
At the end of the day the ISAF decision could only be analysed out as as the result of egos, self-interest and back-room double dealing i.e politics.


Sure that was a part of the disaster but refusing to acknowledge the equal role of the T class actions, and it's egos, self interst and back room double dealing i.e poltics is short sighted. Moreover, the next Olympic catamaran class(s) will need to get it all right. The elite Olympic sailors will be leaders in the classes we sail and I acknowledge their continuing effort. I just want to make sure that they understand the past mistakes while they pursue a second chance for multihull sailing. The notion that catamarans are entitled.... got us into this mess in the first place and could kill off chances for a return.

Rolf
Quote
No point in lingering there.


The time for the PR campaign for 2012 has past. ISAF did not vote an 11th medal. Blowing smoke at the world and OURSELVES is not productive.

Understanding the Tornado experience, it's history and it's success and failures is important if you want a sailor managed class for the elite Olympic level. Alternatively, we could have a SMOD class go for the Olympics and leave the management up to a private party.

I like you miss the boat.... . I hope that Roland and the EU sailors will be able to organize as a class with a sustainable mission and keep it going.

6 years will melt away quickly...
Catamaran sailors need to start forming a consensus as to the future of elite cat racing and the racing classes have to get behind this plan.

What we know is that one person representing ~40 pro and semi pro sailing teams does not win lots of support... either from ISAF or the multihull rank and file.... until it's too late!



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Tornado class regrouping. [Re: Mark Schneider] #192958
10/08/09 12:45 PM
10/08/09 12:45 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Well Mark, it is never too late to do harm you know..

Re: Tornado class regrouping. [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #192960
10/08/09 01:32 PM
10/08/09 01:32 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Quote
Well Mark, it is never too late to do harm you know..


Rolf

a simple retort

After a train wreck... we usually try to ID the causes. I take the view that sunlight is a great disinfectant... It also allows you to see things clearly.




crac.sailregattas.com

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