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Re: port / starboard race rule [Re: zander] #196233
11/13/09 11:18 PM
11/13/09 11:18 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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Wow... so in a buoys race like tradewinds... the only boat required to fly a flag is the N20... I will have to remember to modify the SI's for events to exclude them as well. Thanks


crac.sailregattas.com
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Re: port / starboard race rule [Re: Chris9] #196234
11/13/09 11:18 PM
11/13/09 11:18 PM
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zander Offline
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Originally Posted by Chris9
Quote
and he said it was a Distance Race which to me means maybe neither one of them was "close hauled" but instead trying to get to some fixed marker up the shore/river/what have you.


I'm missing why "close hauled" is impotant hear?


I just looked and it seems that the RSS refers to the ROW boat in relation to "proper course" instead of "close hauled" so proper course could be nearly any point of sail, correct??


Always borrow money from a pessimist. He won't expect it back.
Re: port / starboard race rule [Re: NacraKid] #196240
11/14/09 02:56 AM
11/14/09 02:56 AM
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Originally Posted by NacraKid
A lot of protests come down to wheter the offended party hailed protest or not. A situation can be clear as gold as who was right but if you don't hail "protest" then in the protest room your protest can mean nothing.


Not quite....

I made a deliberate error above to see who whould correct me.

If you are foulded by someone, you need to make it clear that you plan to protest. If the other party does not hear you; that MAY be their problem.

If you see someone hit a mark from 100m away, they may not hear you call protest. If someone hits you, they SHOULD hear you protest. HOWEVER, sailinging is an inclusive game; people who cannot hear properly, are still allowed to play.

Yes, a protesting boat should shout protest, and MAY, depending on the rules and SI's need to raise a protest flay; most small boats do not.

The boat being protested may not HEAR the call... (A Witness to the call is useful).



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Re: port / starboard race rule [Re: scooby_simon] #196247
11/14/09 05:09 AM
11/14/09 05:09 AM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 126
Southampton UK
NacraKid Offline
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If they are a not near enough to hear a hail then you have to inform as soon as.

Re: port / starboard race rule [Re: zander] #196273
11/14/09 09:31 AM
11/14/09 09:31 AM
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Posts: 2,490
On the Water
P.M. Offline
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Originally Posted by zander

The rule in the RSS specify (61.1.a.2) a boat less than 6 meters (19'8 1/4") in length is not required to display a protest flag. The I20 is actually 20' in length so over the limit by 3.75", so our protest was thrown out on a technicality because our team didn't display a flag (don't know who could have seen it but....) It was frustrating but interesting, everyone was reading the RSS's and running around measuring hulls, a good learning experience.

Curious, carry a flag now?


Philip
USA #1006
Re: port / starboard race rule [Re: P.M.] #196275
11/14/09 09:45 AM
11/14/09 09:45 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Originally Posted by mummp
Originally Posted by zander

The rule in the RSS specify (61.1.a.2) a boat less than 6 meters (19'8 1/4") in length is not required to display a protest flag. The I20 is actually 20' in length so over the limit by 3.75", so our protest was thrown out on a technicality because our team didn't display a flag (don't know who could have seen it but....) It was frustrating but interesting, everyone was reading the RSS's and running around measuring hulls, a good learning experience.

Curious, carry a flag now?


If a protest does not meet the minimum requirements to be heard it's tossed. So yes, you need to carry a flag long boat, or you could get an F18 and save the 10 bucks. shocked


David Ingram
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Re: port / starboard race rule [Re: zander] #196276
11/14/09 09:47 AM
11/14/09 09:47 AM
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Santa Barbara CA
sbflyer Offline
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Little late here, but the 'don't starboard tacker ever break rules" was meant to be ironic commentary, but on the close hauled thing, it matters, if you're beating to a mark, close hauled is your proper course, and you shouldn't be on stbd beam reach all of a sudden messing with a port tacker. If you're reaching to a mark, there is a lot more gray area about proper course...

Re: port / starboard race rule [Re: NacraKid] #196291
11/14/09 03:01 PM
11/14/09 03:01 PM
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scooby_simon Offline
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Originally Posted by NacraKid
If they are a not near enough to hear a hail then you have to inform as soon as.


Which may well be the end of the race.


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: port / starboard race rule [Re: Mark Schneider] #196327
11/14/09 08:41 PM
11/14/09 08:41 PM
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Hillsborough, NC USA
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Isotope235 Offline
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Hillsborough, NC USA
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
They think that 16..2 means the ROW boat is restricted from sailing puffs, headers and lifts or changing gears from point mode to foot mode going into a cross...

That is exactly what rules 16.1 and 16.2 do. They restrict a "right-of-way" boat's ability to change course when a "give-way" boat is avoiding her. "Course" under the rules means "compass course", not "close-hauled course". So, if a close-hauled port-tack boat (P) is crossing a close-hauled starboard-tack boat (S), then S must either maintain her course, or change course in a way that gives P room to keep clear. If S happens to get a lift, she can't follow it up if that action would prevent P from keeping clear (RRS 16.1). Likewise, if P is ducking behind S, and S gets a header, she cannot turn down onto P if P would have to immediately change course to keep clear (RRS 16.2).

Quote
Port needs evidence that port changed course to duck and starboard changed course and changed course again solely to get them.

Intent is not part of rule 16.2, only action. Intent is virtually impossible to determine in a protest hearing, which is one reason why some of the rules were rewritten in the last rules change.

Quote
So I take 16.2 as a limit on Starboard actions.

Precisely!

Quote
Port should either be clear ahead and crossing... or clearly ducking and keeping clear.
What am I missing?

I think you are over-simplifying and overstating S's "rights". Rule 10 (Opposite Tacks) does not give a starboard-tack boat carte blanche. Her actions are limited by rules 14, 15, 16, 18, and 19.

Sincerely,
Eric
US SAILING Certified Judge,
Member, Area D Appeals Committee

Re: port / starboard race rule [Re: sbflyer] #196329
11/14/09 08:58 PM
11/14/09 08:58 PM
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Hillsborough, NC USA
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Isotope235 Offline
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Originally Posted by sbflyer
...on the close hauled thing, it matters, if you're beating to a mark, close hauled is your proper course, and you shouldn't be on stbd beam reach all of a sudden messing with a port tacker. If you're reaching to a mark, there is a lot more gray area about proper course...

Two observations:
1) You are correct that "proper course" is a big gray area. It is defined as:
Quote
A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term.

If you can make a reasonable argument as to why you would have sailed that course even if the other boat weren't there, then a protest committee is very likely to conclude that you sailed your "proper course". It is entirely possible that two boats sailing the same leg in the same race would have two different "proper courses". Pinching vs. footing, sailing hot vs. sailing deep, sailing for wind vs. sailing for current, etc. are all considerations that yield different proper courses.

2) The term "proper course", only appears in two rules, RRS 17, and RRS 18.4. It does not apply to boats on opposite tacks on a beat to windward.

Regards,
Eric

Re: port / starboard race rule [Re: scooby_simon] #196331
11/14/09 09:09 PM
11/14/09 09:09 PM
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Hillsborough, NC USA
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Isotope235 Offline
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Originally Posted by scooby_simon
The boat being protested may not HEAR the call... (A Witness to the call is useful).

Perhaps, but a witness is typically not necessary. Unless there is some other evidence that the protestor is untruthful, a protest committee will generally accept his statement that he hailed "protest". You are correct that the hail is valid, even if the protestee doesn't hear it.

And, yes there are some circumstances in which a hail is not required (out of hailing distance, obvious damage or injury, etc.).

Regards,
Eric

Re: port / starboard race rule [Re: Mark Schneider] #196335
11/14/09 10:06 PM
11/14/09 10:06 PM
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Posts: 885
Crofton, MD
Chris9 Offline
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haa got you to say instead of me having to say it....:)

Just funnin with you!


Chris Allen
Nacra 20 Gertie
www.wrcra.org
Re: port / starboard race rule [Re: Chris9] #196337
11/15/09 01:47 AM
11/15/09 01:47 AM
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brucat Offline
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Eric, excellent job with all of these rule references. Your interpretations are spot on with what I'm seeing at the top end here in Newport.

A few things to note regarding some other posts here:

Flags. The intent of the rule changes regarding not requiring flags for small boats was partially due to making protesting easier. Too many protests were tossed on technicalities, which is BAD FOR THE SPORT. There are enough rules in place (as Eric has pointed out here and in similar threads) to allow PCs to move forward with hearing protests in certain situations.

The Hobie Class (IHCA) has siezed on this opportunity to state that flags are not required for ANY Hobie classes, regardless of length. This requires a proper SI, which is one of the items covered in our template.

Unfortunately, too many regattas go the other way. Youth events seems to be the worst. They want flags, hails, and RC notification at the end of the race. Good judges often allow protests without all of these things being met, if RRS and good judgement allow. Mainly, they want to use the hearings to help the kids learn.

Hailing "starboard." I agree with Mark, this is annoying and pointless, IF you are sailing in a good fleet, are comfortable with the ability of the boat on port, and they are looking at you. At the H16s NAs in Kingston in 2000, my crew was yelling starboard at every port boat she saw, until I told her to shut up (not quite in those words). I told her (and all my crews) that as long as someone on the other boat is looking at us, at that level, there's nothing to worry about.

Cross/tack. When I said earlier that you might want the port boat to cross rather than tack, this really has nothing to do with lee-bows. Generally, cats don't tack quickly enough to get in the proper position to pull this off, and the speed of our boats generally affects the airflow in such a way to make this ineffective. However, I don't want a pincher to tack under me, because that will kill me later on the leg. I tend to foot more than most, so almost everyone will outpoint me.

Mike

Re: port / starboard race rule [Re: brucat] #196339
11/15/09 03:20 AM
11/15/09 03:20 AM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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Tack or Cross conversations are great at 3 or 6 knots closing speed in lightnings.... but in cats at boat speeds of 7 knots... ie 14 knots closing... difficult to get right.

If port tackers are approaching starboard and LOOKING for starbord to wave them through... I contend that problems will occur... ..Better to have port looking to tack early or duck early and avoid issues.

Starboard Hunting Port on a cross is another rare situation and IF port is looking for this foul... then it will lead to issues.

Remember... the OP.... was asking..about a foul he KNOWS he committed but is not sure how to exonerate himeslf. Obviously he is at the beginning of the learning curve on racing.

What's needed are guidance on how to handle the majority of racing situations within the rules. The fine details will be beome relevant rules questions down the road.

Finally, the tack or cross conversation is INITIATED by Port... They are the ones who have to choose a course to stay clear of starboard. .... Starboard can holler at port "Cross:... all they want and Port will do what POrt wants... which is to tack and lee bow .... or take starboard's invitation and cross.

Last edited by Mark Schneider; 11/15/09 10:24 AM.

crac.sailregattas.com
Re: port / starboard race rule [Re: brucat] #196382
11/15/09 12:43 PM
11/15/09 12:43 PM
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Hillsborough, NC USA
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Isotope235 Offline
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Originally Posted by brucat
Too many protests were tossed on technicalities, which is BAD FOR THE SPORT.
...
The Hobie Class (IHCA) has siezed on this opportunity to state that flags are not required for ANY Hobie classes, regardless of length. This requires a proper SI, which is one of the items covered in our template.

Unfortunately, too many regattas go the other way. Youth events seems to be the worst. They want flags, hails, and RC notification at the end of the race. Good judges often allow protests without all of these things being met, if RRS and good judgement allow. Mainly, they want to use the hearings to help the kids learn.

The intent of RRS 61.1 "Informing the Protestee", is to give the protested boat a fair opportunity to exonerate herself on the water. If you dont' properly inform the protestee, then your protest is invalid and will likely be thrown out in a hearing. I hate to see this happen (although I've thrown out such protests myself), as it rarely yields a positive outcome.

Class rules cannot modify RRS 61 (see RRS 86.1(c)). If a class wants to require, or not require a red flag, then those changes need to be in the sailing instructions, and possibly the notice of race.

It's very common for Sailing Instructions to add protest requirements, such as informing race committee, or requiring protests to be on official forms. Personally, I dislike such additions. They serve race committee, not the sailors. When presented with a protest that meets RRS 61, but not the SIs, I will look for a way to invalidate the sailing instruction and allow the hearing to continue. Many SIs don't fully conform to RRS 86.1, which helps.

In my experience, youth sailors are the most sportsmanlike. In all the high-school event protests I've heard, the sailors were universally polite, accepting, and appreciative - even when they lost the protest. They often ask the protest committee to explain the ruling, but I've never had one dispute it. I was at one SAISA event where the PC considered throwing out one of the coaches, but the competitors' behavior was exemplary.

Quote
Hailing "starboard." I agree with Mark, this is annoying and pointless, IF you are sailing in a good fleet, are comfortable with the ability of the boat on port, and they are looking at you.

If you are confident that a port boat sees you, understands her obligations, and has sufficient skill to fulfill them, then yes - a hail is superfluous. I typically only hail "starboard" if I suspect the port tack boat may not have seen me. Think of it as a one-word way of asking "hey, do you know I'm here"? When someone hails "starboard" to me, I simply respond "hold your course", which is a short way of saying "yes, I know you're there and I'm going to keep clear of you (as required by rule 10) as long as you fulfill your obligation under rule 16".

Quote
Cross/tack. When I said earlier that you might want the port boat to cross rather than tack, this really has nothing to do with lee-bows. Generally, cats don't tack quickly enough to get in the proper position to pull this off, and the speed of our boats generally affects the airflow in such a way to make this ineffective.

True. The "lee-bow" is generally not an effective maneuver for catamarans. The tack is too expensive (if you can lee-bow, you can probably cross), and being on someone's weather-hip typically isn't as big a disadvantage for cats as for monohulls. Generally speaking, it's usually more advantageous to cross and then tack.

Regards,
Eric

Re: port / starboard race rule [Re: Mark Schneider] #196383
11/15/09 12:51 PM
11/15/09 12:51 PM
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Hillsborough, NC USA
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Isotope235 Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Finally, the tack or cross conversation is INITIATED by Port... They are the ones who have to choose a course to stay clear of starboard. .... Starboard can holler at port "Cross:... all they want and Port will do what POrt wants... which is to tack and lee bow ...

If P hails "tack or cross", and S replies "cross", then P is obligated to cross. If P tacks on S's lee-bow, that would constitute a breach of rule 2 "FAIR SAILING".

Re: port / starboard race rule [Re: Isotope235] #196449
11/16/09 09:23 AM
11/16/09 09:23 AM

A
andrewscott
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andrewscott
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Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by andrewscott
...if you foul someone in a race ... can you do an on the course correction? if yes, what is required?

First of all, take a look at the preamble to the rules "Basic Principle - Sportsmanship and the Rules". It says:
Quote
... A fundamental principle of sportsmanship is that when competitors break a rule they will promptly take a penalty...

Therefore, if you believe you have fouled someone, you should take a penalty, whether they protest or not. If you aren't sure, then it's perfectly ok to see if they protest you. Check rule 61 "Protest Requirements" also. It says:
Quote
a boat intending to protest shall inform the other boat at the first reasonable opportunity. When her protest concerns an incident in the racing area that she is involved in or sees, she shall hail 'Protest' and conspicuously display a red flag at the first reasonable opportunity for each...

Now, there are some exceptions, and the sailing instructions may add additional requirements, but that is the basic notification requirement. Note that the protesting competitor has to say the word "protest". You can't say "you owe me turns", or "you broke a rule", or "you fouled me". You have to say "protest". If your boat is 6 meters or longer, then you must fly a red flag. If you don't do both of these without delay, then your protest is invalid.

Now, about exoneration, look at rule 44. Rule 44.1 says:
Quote
A boat may take a Two-Turns Penalty when she may have broken a rule of Part 2 while racing...

The sailing instructions may change the penalty, or offer an alternative penalty, but if they don't then a boat may usually exonerate herself by making two turns as described by rule 44.2:
Quote
After getting well clear of other boats as soon after the incident as possible, a boat takes a One-Turn or Two-Turns Penalty by promptly making the required number of turns in the same direction, each turn including one tack and one gybe...


I hope that helps,
Eric
US Sailing Certified Judge,
Member, Area D Appeals Committee


THAT HELPS!

Thanks to all.. great info.. i will pass it on to the "OFFENDER" and have learned myself... thank you!


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