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by TexasTuma. 07/01/25 04:16 PM
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tybee 500 scored as a series (just for fun) #19627
05/15/03 05:22 PM
05/15/03 05:22 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
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Gower, Wales, UK
sailwave Offline OP
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Because I'm hooked on this event and needed to do some testing on the latest Sailwave beta, here, **just for fun**, are the results so far scored as a series, rather then cumulatively as per the official results. The times were stolen from the Tybee site; hope this is OK.

http://www.sailwave.com/results/tybee500.htm - scored as a series ignoring class
http://www.sailwave.com/results/tybee500f.htm - scored as a series by class

Differences in elapsed times are shown in the individual race tables.

Colin
www.sailwave.com



Last edited by sailwave; 05/15/03 05:54 PM.
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: tybee 500 scored as a series (just for fun) [Re: sailwave] #19628
05/15/03 10:22 PM
05/15/03 10:22 PM
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Pensacola, Florida / Katy, Tex...
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Nice job. Thanks for the comparison!

Don


Don Cook ARC22 #2226 ADRENALIN
Re: tybee 500 scored as a series (just for fun) [Re: Cookie Monster] #19629
05/16/03 04:47 AM
05/16/03 04:47 AM
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Quote
Thanks for the comparison!


No problem. I find that I can't keep myself away from this event; Mary Wells's stories of Rick's adventures are as good as the event itself... I'll update tonight after coming back from the pub. I was going to do handicap results as well but given what is going down on the old forum, I decided to stay well clear.

Colin
www.sailwave.com

Updated for Fern. leg. [Re: sailwave] #19630
05/17/03 03:59 AM
05/17/03 03:59 AM
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http://www.sailwave.com/results/tybee500.htm - scored as a series ignoring class
http://www.sailwave.com/results/tybee500f.htm - scored as a series by class

Re: Updated for Fern. leg. [Re: sailwave] #19631
05/17/03 11:01 AM
05/17/03 11:01 AM
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Pretty interesting Colin. I was wondering if you would mind plugging in the PN numbers and giving us the result. Here is the PN's for the boats.

6.0NA = 62.5*.96=60.0
New England 6.0 = 60.0
Interesting that the 6.0NA and New England 6.0 with 350 square foot chute are exactly the same number. Probably by design would be my guess until they get information that would change it.
F18HT = 60.0
I20 = 59.2

I just don't want to have to retype all of the times.

Mike Hill
H20 #791


Mike Hill
N20 #1005
Updated for Tybee leg + Portsmouth [Re: Mike Hill] #19632
05/20/03 05:00 AM
05/20/03 05:00 AM
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Updated for Tybee leg and added Portsmouth results.

http://www.sailwave.com/results/tybee500.htm - scored as a series ignoring class
http://www.sailwave.com/results/tybee500r.htm - scored as a series ignoring class - Portsmouth
http://www.sailwave.com/results/tybee500f.htm - scored as a series by class

Regards,
Colin
sailwave.com

Re: Updated for Tybee leg + Portsmouth [Re: sailwave] #19633
05/20/03 08:58 AM
05/20/03 08:58 AM
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Thanks Colin

great stuff ,as always

Raced this year again as team -Antieau Art
We came in D F L due to damage in one leg so scoring by these methods would move us back a few spots ,-thats without a through-out -but think there are merits to scoring an event like this by this method
interesting --
We have a 200 mile race planned in MI -this Aug that we will score by fleet and by finish positions just as you have done for comparison ,-The advantage is each day is a new race to win !!
Just as in regular Bouys racing -

Great to see all the comparisons per various scoring systems .
Outlined ideas for a potential new cat rating system ,-a COMBINATION of Texel -ISAF and Portmouth rating =T I P rating system on the F-20 site if any are interested ,-

It was great to see Mark and Will {the U K team }back ,
hope they had a great time .
Plans are in the works per Tybee organizers and the Outer Banks group to make the Tybee a 1000 mile race ,-though with the option of 500 for next year in 04 .

We will attempt to organize a web site for potential overseas teams for charter boat availability or for teaming up with a skipper /crew with boat here that are looking to team up ,-maybe a section here on catsailor or the Tybee site .

The Tybee race was great ,-half the distance -twice the fun ,-the weather couldn't have been nicer all 6 days for us . Pleasant sailing -racing each day -

If I can answer any questions or assist with a future team just let me know how to help .

Take care
Carl Roberts




Re: Updated for Tybee leg + Portsmouth [Re: sail6000] #19634
05/20/03 11:35 AM
05/20/03 11:35 AM
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Burlington, Vermont USA
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Hey Carl,

Good to hear that folks enjoyed the Tybee 500. Do you have any thoughts on what the sentiment might be among sailors with regard to that other distance race that didn't happen this year?


Kevin Rose N6.0na #215 Lake Champlain (New England's "west coast") Burlington, Vermont
Re: Tybee in 04 [Re: Kevin Rose] #19635
05/20/03 01:15 PM
05/20/03 01:15 PM
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Hi Kevin

We keep hoping for a good result and that things work out fairly for all concerned .

The Tybee IS A GREAT EVENT -really fun ,-great folks -more of the same , reportedly -plans are to make it an optional 500 or 1000 mile race next year to the Outer Banks from Key West -

Carl


Re: Tybee in 04 [Re: sail6000] #19636
05/20/03 01:28 PM
05/20/03 01:28 PM
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Burlington, Vermont USA
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Quote
The Tybee IS A GREAT EVENT -really fun ,-great folks -more of the same , reportedly -plans are to make it an optional 500 or 1000 mile race next year to the Outer Banks from Key West -

Carl



Carl,

Is the sentiment that it should be kept open? Or are there those who raced that would prefer one design?


Kevin Rose N6.0na #215 Lake Champlain (New England's "west coast") Burlington, Vermont
Cumulative results (as per tybee site) added [Re: sailwave] #19637
05/20/03 03:04 PM
05/20/03 03:04 PM
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Cumulative results added and elapsed-delta views added. Now all linked to from one page.

http://www.sailwave.com/results/tybee500.htm

Regards,
Colin
sailwave.com

Last edited by sailwave; 05/20/03 03:11 PM.
Re: Tybee in 04 [Re: Kevin Rose] #19638
05/20/03 04:57 PM
05/20/03 04:57 PM
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Hi Kevin

The Tybee organizers and OuterBanks group will have final say but Chuck did ask for all racing sailors input on the 04 race -

I like numerous classes ,-particularly the Formula classes as an ideal format for this type of distance racing ,
idealy applied to all events rather than a handicap system .
We have 2 or 3 row beach start capabilities so it seems a good way to seperate boats into them per finish in each respective class in the event -

There are already 14 F-18s in the MI area -
and numerous Tigers racing around the country so this seems to be the class not represented this year that hopefully will be added next in great numbers. This along with more F-18 HTS , AND THE 20S ,-think the F-16s could race in this as well .

The Nacra 6/0 seems equal to the I-20 -,the larger shute seems to help in many conditions and the lower C E makes it potentially faster in higher wind-speeds . The Aussie team in the 98 Worrell raced the H-20 very effectively that year and finished 6th . -A Fox or other 20s would be potentially as equal when raced by similarly skilled racers on each respectively .
I like the F-20 CONCEPT for distance racing as it would allow any 20 ft 8.5 beam boat to race evan up -or take the best rudder -boards -rig or hull from each --then add a reef system and you have a SAFER -superior equal speed boat to ocean race .-
Per example a S C 20 platform -boards and rudder system with a similar C F mast and sailplan of the Inter .-
This would add to the event just as with the the Nacra F-18 vs Tiger aspect in the 18 class .

Think this also helps promote more international competition in the event and helps make more boats available to be set up safely and correctly for ocean racing .---Many O D classes now do not allow for a reef system ,-or for changing to a needed heavier rudder system for example ,--THESE ARE NEEDED !!
We were very fortunate in the Tybee 500 weatherwise -
-
Formula 20 rules are outlined on the F-20 Forum here on Catsailor -for any interested.
We have the MI 200 later this year in Aug and hope entrants will sign in as Formula 20 s {each 20 has the option}which will allow these safety mods beyond class buoys oriented racing class rules, which Again are intented for average use not normally encountered in offshore ocean type distance racing .

-
great event
hope this helps

Info on the MI 200 is on the CRAM website
under race schedule along with rules and NOR .

Racing per class per leg finish each day
All classes 16 to 22 ft are welcome !!

Carl

Re: Tybee in 04 [Re: sail6000] #19639
05/20/03 10:04 PM
05/20/03 10:04 PM
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... The Nacra 6/0 seems equal to the I-20 -,the larger shute seems to help in many conditions and the lower C E makes it potentially faster in higher wind-speeds . ...


Carl,

Close? Over 2 hours and 30 minutes separated the top I20 and the 9th place N6.0NA (NE?). I agree that a predetermined formula class (like the european F18) would be awesome in a race like the Tybee. It would really bring the manufactures head to head to the advantage of the sailors and spectators. But to take a bunch of existing boats and bastardize them to try and make them equal will only lead to even more bickering amongst the competitors and the spectators and won't give the manufactures any incentive to really participate.


Jake Kohl
Re: Tybee in 04 [Re: Jake] #19640
05/21/03 08:26 AM
05/21/03 08:26 AM
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MI
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[quote] But to take a bunch of existing boats and bastardize them to try and make them equal will only lead to even more bickering[/end quote]

Hi Jake

strange definition you use -}-bastardizing }--the 6/0 has been modified several times by the mfg. -There is the express version with sq top main ,-the original version with self tacking jib ,--at least two were built with C F masts .--we used the 450 sq ft shutes on 6/0s in the Worrell in 98 -99 .
There is a C H version 6/0 and several use a 270 sq ft chute on them ,-and we have a group with 348 sq ft shutes .
There are numerous rig and gear set up variations as well --
Maybe it is just this type of rhetoric and misinformation along with attitude that {bastardizes }the sport .
A HANDICAPPING system based on times of skippers in a class can only reflect that --which is those skippers comparitive ability nothing more .--

If we placed Alex and Nigel -Steve and Kenny -Brian and Jamie --and other top teams on 6/0s the results would be much the same .
No offence to 6/0 sailors but the skill levels are different ,-not that much in the boats .

Per example --Dave and I WON THE SPRING FEVER REGATTA LAST YEAR --on the Inter 20 --Matt and also Randy S WERE ON NEW jAV 2S ,--WE ALL arrived at the weather mark together but they sailed better downwind staying in the dying breezes better .--
The hype from then on appearing in magazines etc was the Jav is faster ,--well its not when sailed by equivalent sailors ,--I,m not Randy or Matt ,-two of the best in the world ,---
WHAT DOES YOUR precious P RATING REALLY DO ??

Adding reef systems or an improved stronger rudder system ,-or adding gear and hardware placement systems for spin snuffer systems makes them safer --SAFER .-

its not bastardizing --

THIS IS THE REALITY -and why so many consider handicap racing a joke .
It only reflects skill level of those recorded in class at the time --nothing more

If you want an artificial handicap --this is fine but be honest about it -
and don.t try to use rhetoric to misinform others from establishing better forms of racing .

Formula is certainly a better alternative for distance racing --
Please recall the disatisfaction during distance races earlier this year ,-now some types are excluded from distance races like the Texas race as a result --what does this accomplish ?

Keep your H C racing for local club buoys racing --an individual H C system would be actually better but P is fine in that application .--
It is obviously not intended or suited for distance racing so lets get this aspect corrected for the betterment of the sport .

Re: overseas teams... [Re: sail6000] #19641
05/21/03 09:26 AM
05/21/03 09:26 AM
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Hi Carl,

Quote

We will attempt to organize a web site for potential overseas teams for charter boat availability or for teaming up with a skipper /crew with boat here that are looking to team up ,-maybe a section here on catsailor or the Tybee site .

The Tybee race was great ,-half the distance -twice the fun ,-the weather couldn't have been nicer all 6 days for us . Pleasant sailing -racing each day -

If I can answer any questions or assist with a future team just let me know how to help .


Something like that would be great.

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com
colin@sailwave.com

Re: Tybee in 04 [Re: sail6000] #19642
05/21/03 11:25 AM
05/21/03 11:25 AM
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Burlington, Vermont USA
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. . . If we placed Alex and Nigel -Steve and Kenny -Brian and Jamie --and other top teams on 6/0s the results would be much the same .
No offence to 6/0 sailors but the skill levels are different ,-not that much in the boats .

Per example --Dave and I WON THE SPRING FEVER REGATTA LAST YEAR --on the Inter 20 --Matt and also Randy S WERE ON NEW jAV 2S ,--WE ALL arrived at the weather mark together but they sailed better downwind staying in the dying breezes better .--
The hype from then on appearing in magazines etc was the Jav is faster ,--well its not when sailed by equivalent sailors ,--I,m not Randy or Matt ,-two of the best in the world . . .


Carl,

I agree with you in that too often the sailors are left out of the equation. In an earlier post, I noted the spread between the cummulative times of the first and last place finishers in each class. If the boat were the only variable, we would expect a much tighter grouping, but there was an 8 hour, 14 minute spread between sailors on I20's.

But what about the [color:"red"]average cummulative time[/color] for sailors in each class? If you take all those who finished, it calculates out as follows:

N6.0 - 54 hours, 38 minutes
I20 - 54 hours, 52 minutes
F18HT - 57 hours, 37 minutes


Kevin Rose N6.0na #215 Lake Champlain (New England's "west coast") Burlington, Vermont
Re: "bastardize" [Re: sail6000] #19643
05/21/03 11:28 AM
05/21/03 11:28 AM
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Carl,
Per Merriam-Webster:
Bastard
:An illegitimate child
: something that is spurious, irregular, inferior, or of questionable origin

Illegitimate
: not recognized as lawful offspring
: departing from the regular : ERRATIC
: not sanctioned by law : ILLEGAL

A boat that is not class legal is comparable to an illegitimate offspring.
A mfg producing different modifications of a given boat over time does not legitimize homegrown "one-offs".
Even a group of people getting together and making the same modification does not legitimize them.

Just because the Hobie 16 has had a few modifications over the years doesn't mean that one with
a huge chute, a bow foil and "T" rudders on it isn't an illegitimate bastard.

All boats have variations allowed by Class rules.
Talking about the different rigging on a NACRA 6.0 is a childish and spurious argument.

"SAFER"? Again you try to change the subject as if all modifications are improving safety. What bull!
Most modifications are SPEED related which is usually contrary to safety.

"Artificial Handicap" What are you talking about?

P.S. What happened to your NAF 20 Class?
What happened to your big money Formula series?
What happened to to your new handicapping system?

Re: overseas teams... [Re: sailwave] #19644
05/21/03 01:19 PM
05/21/03 01:19 PM
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MI
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Hi Colin

Thanks so much for Sail Wave scoring - its great !

In talking to Rod {Aussie sailor} after the Tybee 500 he mentioned getting this going as well -

Know several with boats here that would like to team up with others with ocean racing background .-
Will get that line of communication going once rules and boats for 04 are set .-
I .ll also volunteer to take e-mails from catsailors interested and see if I can help put 2 and 2 together and get more teams established .

Always been an advocate of it and enjoy historically the international aspect of the 1000 mile race up the East Coast as the ultimate challange for catsailors .
Happy to help any way I can -

Carl - crdesign@cac.net

Re: [Re: samevans] #19645
05/21/03 02:14 PM
05/21/03 02:14 PM
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People that race have different experiences and perspective opinion based on them .

If you have only raced a H-17 in a small group for example you may believe an artificial skipper based time handicap that favors your particular boat is ideal .Please correct this if wrong --

If one has the background of racing in H-class racing over a long period of time working up through the ranks then sailing numerous National and World Championships , then also having experience in developmental class racing like A Class and 18 sq meters ,-built several boats and cats -and also has raced in Prosail and Ultimate Yacht race events at the upper levels of the sport -and then numerous distance races inc.Worrell 1000 s and a Tybee 500 race where boat prep is a major aspect then --that skipper may have a different experience to draw on and form opinion from .

-Both are valid based on the individuals perspective --
there is oportunity and events for all types of racing sailors --
but one may be more benificial to the sport for major events and distance races based on those actual experiences .

to answer the questions -

artificial handicap =
Preface to rating discussion first the true intent of racing catamarans, -its ideals and goals must be understood and defined. Is the intent of ratings to determine the best type of boat in racing conditions of a particular set of measurements and specifications, the basics being Length Beam Weight and Sail area.
We have the ideal one design; development and Formula group racing for these ideal forms of racing, -Should a rating system at its base be an extension of this ideal form.---
Or is the intent of rating catamarans one of attempting to find a system or rating formula that allows a variety of different design types ;good or bad, --to win races. If so then artificial averages and a means of limiting or artificial handicapping must be devised penalizing some faster design, -rewarding slower ones with favoritism in some form as a compensating factor. ;
If it is this artificial handicap then it would ideally only be used or applied when good class type racing was not available when using either a measurement design rating or Yardstick type rating system based on averaging times being inherently inferior.

Both types of rating systems in use both average times and measurement design in combination with differing base and using the other method secondarily to it to accomplish its rating objectives.
Some way or means is required in measurement to classify boat types as a beginning definition basic to our understanding.
Measurement design based rating from a design theory perspective only would still have numerous flaws within rating boats and problems to resolve if the intent is to handicap and limit all boats in the concept of equalizing speed potential through handicap time allowances. Dependent on ones intent of rating boats cognoscent of the inherent flaws and faults in averaging boats performance relative to one another in their diverse design forms, along with the problems of very different performance characteristics in the infinite variety of-sea and weather patterns and intended uses and specifications per designer THIS BECOMES AN IMPOSSIBLE TASK, to accomplish fair sailing for all-Some will benefit greatly, many will be unduly penalized comparatively using average times or by limiting and penalizing good design
A rating system, -any system is not the know all be all or should attempt to be.
.
- 2 --T I P rating

With the amount of annalysis and comparison on the Tybee race believe this combination rating concept as outlined will become an accepted goal to move towards over time -

T I P Catamaran Rating


Simple description ; Combination rating system using the best features of Texel ISAF and Portsmouth.
= T I P Catamaran Rating;proposed outline for consideration and developmental concepts and ideas .

Base rating equation per Texel & ISAF - Rated Length Rated Sail Area- Rated Weight, as listed per Tex. Rating.

Proposed from this proven base rating along with several modifications for use in N A is a 2 wind speed category based on wind-speed effects below 8 . Also an on trap windspeed above 8, --the 3 range B. scale ,-based on beam and board effects at higher speeds, -and rated sail area inc. adapted spin rating system per current ISAF.

The ISAF spin added rating equation is proposed for use producing similar rating numbers with Tex.through a more thorough means of measurement and rating actual spin area -rather than the added 4 pt Tex. rating currently uses for all spin rigged cats by specifying a targeted size for each length and adding extra penalty for those over.
The ISAF added spin rating calc. allows any spin size to be readily rated per area- per sail-maker, -along with any modification.
A spin efficiency factor is also proposed to accurately rate spin area per design in class.

A [Handicap Added Factor } based on Portsmouth Rating difference from modern catamaran design base model target rating or comparable non spin Formula design per rating conversion in each length category . This theoretically factors in Portsmouth rating handicap to the updated base rating and provides more favorable rating numbers applied to older design classes as compared to modern cat design.

Assumptions in T I P rating;as proposed--
1-Tex. rating base is developmental and will reflect lower speed range accurately as foundation for all extended and added modification factors ,- .-inc. upper wind rating added and cat design of 22 ft and greater as modified.
2-ISAF Spin calc method with added Eff factor per aspect ratio will average in the 4 pt added range per each typical class design sail area.
3-Wind-speed factors of total beam ,-board correction ,-rated sail area effects to rated L and rated W inc.crew weight correct to an accepted average in the upper range category.
4- Future wind-speed category will be required to address new developments in catamaran design of angled lifting boards and foils . Also planning hull effects along with hull P C rating effect in 2 wind-speeds proposed. Along with other future sailplan and design developments as required.
5-Method for adding Portsmouth rating per comparable rating of non spin design target in each Length category is accurate as applied to older cat classes having lesser non factored design features per criteria and class age original form as outlined.

TIP Catamaran rating numbers in wind-speed category may be cross -checked with current rating system numbers for comparison ,-all proposed rating calc methods are developmental.


Advantages

Utilizes the best features of the 3 main current rating systems in use ----Tex. Isaf and P. =TIP

Provides an accurate proven rating number for modern cat designs, --no provisional number is needed-


Eliminates the page of modification factors that utilize a one penalty factor fits all approach regardless of the size spin ;jib ;main mast height, -etc.

Provides a much larger base pool internationally of base rating information to help verify rating accuracy.

Integral rating system, more compatible to promote large class racing groups in N A .

The system as outlined needs to be developed and refined in these added categories --

1- Spin rating calc method per ISAF rating and spin eff rating factor added per aspect ratio.

2- Windspeed modification factors ,-board effects ,-rated sail area to weight and length,-and beam effect calc applied to wind-speed. Consideration for future windspeed category for angled lifting boards and foil effeciency ,and hull form inc. planning types per current new design .

3- H A F ;Integrating updated Portsmouth rating as applied to handicaping older design per criteria added to the equation and calc method applied .

-
question 3
Formula is a more ideal form of racing -F-20 has basic rules outlined on the F-20 forum here on Catsailor and believe we will see F-20 racing later this season -

It is not up to any individual to purchase boats or promote the class ,-but it is available as outlined for any that care to choose this type of racing or to hold an event and or start a F-20 group in your area .
That is the goal -

4 -You may be confused on "big money " racing -
think the HT-18 had prize money last year ,-
the N E 100 has had prize money in previos years ,but don.t know what the reference is --

Sam
Get out and race some distance races this year ,-
be happy to discuss boat prep and mods required for this type of racing directly with you after finishing a high wind -sea condition 100 mile leg that may finish well into the night ,--then you can explain why mods are not needed in your opinion to "mfg class" boats .

have fun

Carl

Re: Tybee in 04 [Re: sail6000] #19646
05/21/03 07:02 PM
05/21/03 07:02 PM
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Jake Offline
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I didn't mean to sound so standoffish when I said 'bastardizing' but the point I really want to make is that these classes are not going to work without manufacturer support. While I intend to convert to the New England rig, I'm not doing it so I can go up against boats designed totally differently. I also disagree that Nigel and Alex can get on a N6.0NE and start passing all the other I20 top dogs (I'm sure they'll pass me however). These boats and hull shapes and sail plans with totally different characteristics and purposes. The N6.0NA - ala New England - is the strongest class thing I've ever seen that was sailor driven but Nacra still poo-poo'd it - why?

A manufacturer does not have any incentive to get involved in such a sailor driven (and random) issue. Look at where F18 is. While it's not quite caught on here in the U.S., it's getting there. With the Nacra F18 and the Hobie Tiger to start seeing each other more often, Nacra and Hobie will have more incentive to aggressively market their boats and go after sailors. They'll have more incentive to do more development work with larger resources than you or I have in our back yards. My point is that a formula class, for which the boats are specifically designed, has a much greater chance of fair competition, advancement in technology, and freebies for the sailors.


Jake Kohl
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