Rick,

A "My Way or the Highway" attitude is unattractive no matter which side brings it to the table.
It seems as tho HCA is willing to try, making an attempt to move your direction.
Maybe not quite hard enough or far enough for your taste, but an olive branch has been extended.
To publicly take such a hard line was counterproductive.
There are people within HCA-NA that are interested in trying to work on and support some sort of compromise.
Your words make it clear that unless you get to rewrite the HCA rulebook to suit yourself, YOU are the one that is not interested in trying to find some sort of a middle ground.
To be sure, You have valid points, however, at this point in the process, you could have made them less publicly, or more gently.
The art of negotiation is a process.
Harsh words and an unforgiving attitude will only serve to delay or destroy any hope of progress.

Stephen

I agree with Rick. The IWCA has the racers, HCA does not. The HCA wants the racers, the racers don't want their rules. Seems pretty f-ing simple to me.

What you're proposing Stephen is splitting a class, and that is counterproductive in my mind.

I think the whole conversation is silly, anyway. The IWCA Wave fleets seem to be mostly at sailing clubs or dealerships where they have mast-up storage and have regular racing at their home clubs. Most of them have no interest in traveling to regattas at other locations. Why should they? Club-based fleets of any type of sailboat do all their racing at home and a few might occasionally travel to a North Americans or a Nationals. Most of them are not serious enough about racing to want to leave their comfortable berth and hit the road. Plus, they have series races at home, and they are going to lose points if they leave to go to a regatta elsewhere.It is a different world from the more nomadic Hobie Way of Life where we don't have home clubs and have to travel in order to race and earn points.

So I think if HCA wants to build up participation of Waves at points regattas, they will have more success by recruiting from within their ranks -- moving other Hobie sailors onto Waves -- have them buy a Wave as a second boat, get the kids on Waves, keep your older sailors racing, get more women on the helm. Those are people who already are accustomed to traveling to regattas.

In other words, there is no reason for any changes by anybody.

Could you all please stick to short sarcastic comments please. It's to hard to keep up with the long winded stuff.

As someone with a little pull at the Madcatter, I can tell you if Mimi manages to get a group of Waves at the Madcatter, they will get to race. If the racers are ok with it in that class, they can sail with old curtains.

We have solved other issues on site in the past without making it a Federal case.

Act surprised, Show concern, Deny Deny Deny.

Ok Folks,

Let's step back and take three deep breaths ....

One, Inhale ... hold ... Exhale

Two, Inhale ... hold ...Exhale

Three, Inhale ... hold ... Exhale

We all ok now????

Now a few statements .... I have no dog in this fight, I own a TheMightyHobie18 and a P19MX ... Stephens post is very insightful and contains many very good points worth listening to ... I have friends on both sides of this issue and I wish to see "peace" between all parties ... And I believe this could be a win-win situation for all parties ... OK

No names will be mentioned ... in this next section as who said what, did what, is ill-relivent!!!!

-Now I happen to know that Rich's version of the initial invite to the HavaMega is true ... the Waves were supposed to race under IWCA rules.

-If the Waves had raced under IWCA rules, a sail measured and certified by the IWCA "Measurer" would have been legal .... therefore there would have been no additional work/time/effort required by the the Havamega Organizers/officials other then checking the sails for a date and certification signatures if protested. All non-Hobie sails could have been (and should be) certified prior to arrival at the event.

-As Hobie Cat Co and the HCA-NA publically stated many years ago that they would not support the Wave as a racing class, therefore they have effectively given up their rights to input or control of the "racing rules" the Waves operate under. (IMHO, this was the crucial and pivital decision/mistake by HCC, IHCA, and the HCA-NA. It must be reconized, acknowledged ... and lived with ...)


Now for a few important words ... compromise, provisional, and grandfathered ....

So I put forth this compromise .... Hobie Waves be allowed to compete on a provisional basis under IWCA rules. All modifications and improvements IWCA legal to this date are "grandfathered" and are class legal for compitition in "Hobie" events.

A joint committee of Hobie Cat Co, IHCA and the IWCA review the modifications/improvements for cost and manufacturability w/ the purpose of arriving at a Wave configuration suitable for racing at a minimal cost

Let's remember that the H16 has benefited from many improvements developed by racers that were later incorporated by the Hobie Cat Co into their production runs. For ex: the origonal H14 rudder blades where not suitable for racing the H16s .... maybe the same is true for the Wave? ....

Great post Stephen ....

Pat, Sorry for the long post ... what kind of curtains were you talking about??? Shower Curtains ... Draperies??? How about some ol' slip-covers .... Chuckle, chuckle. hee-hee

Harry Murphey

Karl,

I proposed nothing of the sort.

Oh, and by the way.................
Are you in love with me or something ?
The way you have been following me around the forums commenting on every post I make ..... well, people are starting to wonder.

It is always easier to ask for forgiveness than it is to ask for permission.

Its just worked out that way. I've tried to comment only when you're picking on other classes in support of your own... I just think the HCA is meddling with something that they shouldn't is all. The IWCA is doing fine all on its own, they like it, and nothing needs to be changed within their rules. Any major change like this runs the risk of pissing people off or losing them to another boat.




and Stephen, you know I have a deep seeded love of mustang drivin', TheMightyHobie18 sailors!

Quit annoying these people. You have lots of annoying to do over here. http://www.catsailor.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=6&page=1

Since I'm retired we need a resident pot stirrer!

Good Point


Good Plan

Leave IHCA and the Company out of it and let HCANA & IWCA sit on the committee. This is a USA issue, and the sailors need to work it out without undue influence from the factory.
It is time for the sailors to do what is best for sailing just as the company does what is best for business. Understanding that the two almost never run at right angles, they do not always run in a parallel direction.


Another good point that some people at the company seem to have lost touch with.

Leave IHCA and the Company out of it and let HCANA & IWCA sit on the committee. This is a USA issue, and the sailors need to work it out without undue influence from the factory.
It is time for the sailors to do what is best for sailing just as the company does what is best for business. Understanding that the two almost never run at right angles, they do not always run in a parallel direction.

+1



Not so sure about that, hell, HCC changed length of bridles this year. Don't think that was because the recreational Hobie 16 sailor was concerned about pointing ability. This class obviously has close ties to "the Company" (and here-in may lay fear of change?).

Wonder how many new 16's are sold to non-racers? MMiller?

Well, if you look at all the posts on this subject, going back to last spring, you will find I have been sweet and nice as pie. But, there are some that don't get the point unless you put it across strongly.
Mimi started this thread hoping we could race Waves together somehow. And it was headed in that direction.
Then, suddenly, Mike, who had been under an impression that IWCA wanted to merge with HCA, and did not understand the situation, made a post that I had to finally get straightened out. And there are lots of folks out there that still do not understand the situation.

Again, IWCA is not asking anybody to do anything, it is not asking anyone to rewrite rules. SIMPLY PUT, if a regatta organizer (I don't care who it is, what organization it is, what yacht club it is) invites the Wave Class, we would expect to be allowed to come and race, with:
*rudders perhaps from a 1985 Hobie 18 on the boat
*a sail that is pretty.., maybe not that fast or colorful, but one that looks good to the eye
*a trampoline that may have not been mfged by Hobie
*a mainsheet that is not that horrible blue crap that stiffens up and won't run through the blocks
*a sailor that is under 125 pounds and won't have to add weight.
This is just a basic courtesy of any hosting regatta organizer. If you invite someone to a party, you should not tell them what to wear. Or if you do, don't be surprised if they are a no-show.

Once more, no one is asking anyone to change a rule.
Rick

I can't imagine asking the IWCA to change a thing. If we're going to invite IWCA to HCA events then we'll respect the IWCAs desire to follow what they like to do. If an IWCA racer decides to come to an HCA event that is not specifically designed for IWCA, the expectation would be to follow the IHCA rules. Being the spineless jellyfish that I am, I want to point out that I (he who has tried to lead the HCA Wave charge) has not asked for too many concessions from anyone and would not presume to reinvent the wheel with people rolling along just fine. I just want ONE bigass Wave event with a ton of pics and stories to stir up all the people that would/could start coming to/return to regattas at the fleet level when they see that the Wave is the alternative to not sailing at all.

+1 for Rick and the IWCA. Those boats are not for me (Where's the spi?) but I fully support Rick's position. It is up to the racers to decide what and when they want to race. HCA do not have any wave racers, never expressed an ounce of interest in supporting wave racers, and wrongly think they should have a monopoly in racing cats manufactured by Hobie Cat just because they have representatives of HCC on their board.

Go Rick!

I am sure you support is greatly appreciated. Seeings as you said the boat is not for you (I took it as beneth you), your input is invaluable. Also, nice of you to point out that the HCA has no interest in supporting a Wave Racing Class, and have no racers and that we think we should have a monopoly on all of it, because I just wasn't sure what my organizations stance on any of this is, but you, being from (where again?) seem to have the inside scoop. This kind of **** is what sets people tempers flaring and sarcastic responses just start flowing right after, but thanks for chiming in pepin.

Sounds to me like Rick and Chris are on the right track. So long as everyone else decides to help or get out of the way good things will happen.

Mary, well put, and I agree.
Caleb Tarleton

No, not beneath me. I like more performance than the wave can provide, that's all. A simple non-trapeze/no-spi boat is a good thing to have as a class.

Sure, you're welcome. As an outsider with no interest in any of this I was just providing my opinion.

And for the record I used to live in the US (California, SF Bay) and sailed a Hobie Cat 16 for years in the bay, in Santa Cruz or on the Lexington reservoir when sailing solo. When I approached my local HCA F16 fleet I was told I could not join because my boat was not class legal (no comtip). I was not going to cut my mast and buy a new comtip to have the privilege of having an inferior boat just so I can participate in a couple of events every year.

OK, for anyone who isn't getting it, I am trying to help. I'm pointing out the obstacles so we can work through them; not once did I say that I want to use rules to keep anyone away. As you know, I am a certified RO, so I have been trained well to stick to the rules, or work to get them changed, within the procedures allowed.

I never said I thought IWCA and HCA should merge. What we are talking about is how to go about allowing IWCA waves to sail at HCA regattas, while we currently have the Hobie-only edict, and IHCA class rules in place. I’ll say it again, I’m bringing this up because we WANT to see this happen, we just need to figure out how to make it work.

Seems to me that the only sticking points are the tramps and sails. As I've already pointed out, the sheets are already legal. The rudder issue is a (relatively) easy fix. Does the minimum weight thing really affect anyone? If so, that shouldn’t be hard to change, it’s been done before.

Here’s the main point: HCA is not asking IWCA to change their rules for IWCA events, but there may be limits in what we can get changed for HCA events. Would it really kill you to put a Hobie sail up at a HCA event if that were the only rule we couldn’t change?

But, all of this may be moot if Rick and Mary are correct, and no matter what changes HCA makes, IWCA sailors will find a host of reasons not to come. Our time might be better spent leaving the rules alone, and working to find more Hobie sailors.

I hope this is not the case, because I'd like to see everyone playing together on the water.

Mike

PS: Pepin, the boat isn't inferior if they're all the same, but that's a whole other tangent.

Hi Pepin,
Ah, but I do have the exact dosage for you. Check out the Super Wave.
http://www.catsailor.com/waves/superwave_overall.html
With this rig the boat is almost as fast as the Hobie 16. I won first overall (60 boats, most with spins) at the last Round the Bay Regatta put on by Mike Fahle at LaSalle, MI, took 2nd in the Conch Cup in Miami, FL, (about 40 boats.., lots of spins, Marstroms, A-Cats, H16s, et al), Won the Sandusky Steeplechase, and the list goes on.

Hot set up. And Chris.., if you really want a youth trainer boat, this is it -- small, cheap, fast, double-handed (if you want) and a great lead-in for larger, faster, expensive spin boats.

I had been working on the SuperSuperWave. I used a nine foot bow sprit, had a pretty large self-tacking, roller-furling jib tacked about midway out the pole, with a roller-furling Hooter on the end.
At the Sandusky Steeplechase a couple years ago I was keeping up with Rick Roten's Hobie 20.
Keep in mind, the boat has tremendous buoyancy and can handle unlimited power (Great F14 platform) sort of like the International 14.
It was absolutely skipping across the water. With the Hooter angled out to the end of the3 9-foot pole, it created a tremendous amount of lift.
Alas, it all exploded.., or imploded. Needs a heftier bow sprit. Still have the sails, but have not returned to the project as there are so many other projects going on right now.

And money is getting scarce.
Rick