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America's Cup - 10 days to go! #201612
01/29/10 05:18 PM
01/29/10 05:18 PM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline OP
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(from now on, I'm just going to say BMWO and Alinghi instead of mentioning their respective yacht clubs, GGYC and SNG).

Time for another brief on the America's Cup. Much has happened since our last discussion - the biggest sticky point recently has been accusations from BMWO that Alinghi are using sails that were not constructed in Switzerland. These accusations have been ‘mumbled’ by BMWO for over a year now but they never brought it to a point. They did about three weeks ago and the teams met in Singapore to try and negotiate on several points. Many items of contention and questionable legality exist in the NOR and Sailing Instructions that have been recently published in draft form by Alinghi. Including, a wind limit of 15knots measured at 60 meters above the water, the wave limit of 1 meter (39 inches), trying to require BMWO to moore their boat inside the Valencia inner harbor (where there is not enough room for them to safely maneuver with the wing up), the effective reinsertion of rule 53 (which the courts permitted Alinghi to exclude) which means that BMWO’s newly fitted skin friction reduction system may no longer be permitted (yes, they may be ejecting a substance or fine bubbles into the water to help the hulls slip through the water more easily), among other things.

Alinghi’s sail problem is this: The Deed of Gift says

Quote
Any organized Yacht Club of a foreign country, incorporated, patented, or licensed by the legislature, admiralty, or other executive department, having for its annual regatta on ocean water course on the sea, or on an arm of the sea, or one which combines both, shall always be entitled to the right of sailing a match for this Cup, with a yacht or vessel propelled by sails only and constructed in the country to which the Challenging Club belongs, against any one yacht or vessel constructed in the country of the Club holding the Cup.


Alinghi’s sail panels are North Sails 3DL panels and the only place in the world to have them made is in the North facility in Minden, Nevada, USA where they have a custom pneumatically controlled mold where they lay out the mylar panels, lay in the reinforcement scrim in load paths, vacuum bag, and cook/cure the laminated panel together as per the customer’s design specifications. The Alinghi mainsails are seamed from two each of these custom molded panels and their genoas are made from 3 to 5 of these panels. Alinghi seamed these panels and added the corner fittings in Switzerland. Their first reaction to BMWO’s complaint was that their sails are made in Switzerland…so hush (I paraphrase). When pressed with evidence, their response was that “sails aren’t really part of the ‘yacht’ so they’re exempt from the phrase in the deed”. When pressed with the legal affidavit filed by their own team from their lead designer from the last round in the court where he said “a yacht constitutes all the parts needed to sail it including rudders and sails” (I paraphrase closely – out of time to look up the exact wording but this is extremely close), Alinghi agreed to sit and discuss it in Singapore.

With the deadline looming for BMWO to file suit against Alinghi’s sails and be heard in time before the match is to begin on Feb. 8th, they sat down in Singapore. Both sides blame the other for the implosion of the discussions and with the NDA required by Alinghi, it will be some time before we ever know exactly what happened there. What we do know is that 8 drafts of an agreement were written up by the Alinghi team. BMWO and a representative from US Sailing signed (what we believe to be) the last revision but after a call from Singapore to the Alinghi leadership, Alinghi refused to sign. Alinghi claims that it was because BMWO initiated their suit against their sails in New York. BMWO says we told them we would initiate the suit on Tuesday if an agreement wasn’t in place and it was already Wednesday. Sooooo…nothing came out of the discussions in Singapore.

The legal documents were filed by BMWO which (in my opinion) made a pretty good case that seaming custom fit panels and sewing on eyes to their corners doesn’t constitute “manufactured” when the panel was custom molded from scratch elsewhere. They also presented a good bit of America’s cup history where the origin of the sails – sometimes even the raw materials that went into them – was a big point of contention. Alinghi’s rebuttle documentation went all over the place and did little to address BMWO’s suit. They basically implied that if the court is to rule on the CiC (Constructed in Country) status of Alinghi’s sails, they should look at BMWO’s hydraulics (a club member saw a box at an Italian hydraulic manufacturer warehouse headed for BMWO), and the BMWO engine. They also argued that the case shouldn’t be heard until after a race happens. Their tactic seemed to be more of one to daze and confuse – but this is Alinghi’s newly hired law firm (their 3rd now). BMWO’s final filling blew me away – it was concise, to the point, and really seemed to drill home that yes, sails are part of a “yacht”, yes they need to be CiC, and they proceeded to shoot down Alinghi’s counter claims against their own boat going so far as to show several examples where they went to great length to ensure that their boat conformed (the Italian hydraulics were used initially but they had contracted with the American arm of the same company to have the hydraulic system remanufactured in the US once it was debugged and proven out…all the Italian components were replaced). Coutts has actually said in some interviews that even the oil from which the carbon fibers were derived came from US soil.

The commodore of SNG (Alinghi’s club) Fred, stated that if “BMWO was successful in DSQ’ing their yacht in the courts, there would be no match”. Many were on pins and needles wondering if this thing would actually happen…and we began wondering what the fallout would be after all this money has been spent if they pulled the plug in such a manner. (note, however, BMWO wasn’t trying to DSQ Alinghi – they were just trying to prevent them from using US constructed sails….on multiple occasions they offered Alinghi time to build sails that conform to the CiC clause in the Deed).

Meanwhile, in Valencia Spain, the teams have been getting some practice in. The America’s Cup Race Committee set a test course yesterday so they could get some practice as well – and they offered it up to the two teams to get some practice as well. With 7 knots of wind (and the water barely disturbed) USA-17 (BMWO) approached the start line with the wing dialed in, and flying two hulls. At some point, we have a report of USA-17 being measured making 28 knots in these conditions. A “bang” was heard by the observers at the race committee and USA-17 returned to base to repair a reportedly minor failure with some of the flap rigging on the wing. They repaired their boat this afternoon and went out for a test sail at around 4pm. Alinghi also performed some test sailing yesterday and were out a day break this morning to do more testing.

This afternoon, after the courts had an opportunity to read the fillings, a conference call was had between the judge and representatives of both teams. We don’t yet know details, but the court case will not be heard until March. The court says “go race first and then we’ll sort it out”. So it’s game on now. 10 days and counting.

There will be internet coverage from various sources (possibly even an online site of ESPN). Sailing Anarchy says they’ll have an announcement on Monday about something they are working on as well. Racing will start at around 4:30am Eastern Standard time…I’ll be at my computer on Monday Feb. 8th at that time – will you?


Jake Kohl
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: America's Cup - 10 days to go! [Re: Jake] #201619
01/29/10 05:54 PM
01/29/10 05:54 PM
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Portland, Maine
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Quote
I’ll be at my computer on Monday Feb. 8th at that time – will you?


UGH! I have to be in Raleigh in my office!!!

I might have to play hooky.

Re: America's Cup - 10 days to go! [Re: ThunderMuffin] #201621
01/29/10 06:46 PM
01/29/10 06:46 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 170
Brisvegas
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Brisvegas
Is that start time GMT -5hrs? Hope my calculations are right - that's Monday 7.30pm where I am - sweet.

Re: America's Cup - 10 days to go! [Re: ACE11] #201624
01/29/10 07:45 PM
01/29/10 07:45 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
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Charleston, SC, USA
krona Offline
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Thanks Jake... I was just thinking I needed to go through a bunch of sites trying to catch up... and I saw your condensed post.. smile

Bjorn


NACRA 570 #90308
Hobie 16 #68973
Re: America's Cup - 10 days to go! [Re: Jake] #201625
01/29/10 08:28 PM
01/29/10 08:28 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
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2017 F18 Americas Site
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Jake:

Maybe you could refer to it with it's new name USA17.

Dan

Re: America's Cup - 10 days to go! [Re: Dan_Delave] #201626
01/29/10 08:42 PM
01/29/10 08:42 PM
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Brisvegas
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Or perhaps more accurately NZL/AUS/NED17

Re: America's Cup - 10 days to go! [Re: Dan_Delave] #201627
01/29/10 10:25 PM
01/29/10 10:25 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
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South Carolina
Jake Offline OP
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Dan - I thought I did.

Ace - yup...that's GMT-5...you dog.

check out the latest BMWO video...it's a nice moderately informative video - but the last 10 seconds are pretty darn cool (crank up the volume...the music is understated - but key).





Jake Kohl
Re: America's Cup - 10 days to go! [Re: Jake] #201628
01/29/10 10:33 PM
01/29/10 10:33 PM
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Jake Offline OP
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And let me apologize for being a little biased in that summary...I try to be relatively neutral in those but I was short on time and as things are drawing tighter, my bias is becoming stronger as I grow impatient with what I feel are poor decisions by Alinghi/SNG that not only put the America's Cup in jeopardy but really detract from the event and will potentially leave us in court for an extended period after the event is concluded.


Jake Kohl
Re: America's Cup - 10 days to go! [Re: Jake] #201641
01/30/10 09:50 AM
01/30/10 09:50 AM
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Portland, Maine
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No need to apologize for the bias. It just so happens that our team is rooted in sound basis of fact and the other is ... well, shall we say, "fantasy".

Sails not part of a yacht.... bwhahaha

Re: America's Cup - 10 days to go! [Re: Jake] #201642
01/30/10 10:22 AM
01/30/10 10:22 AM
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Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Originally Posted by Jake
And let me apologize for being a little biased in that summary...I try to be relatively neutral in those but I was short on time and as things are drawing tighter, my bias is becoming stronger as I grow impatient with what I feel are poor decisions by Alinghi/SNG that not only put the America's Cup in jeopardy but really detract from the event and will potentially leave us in court for an extended period after the event is concluded.


Seeing how you are living in the good ol' USA I don't see any need for you to not to be biased. They may both be a couple of pain in the a$$ whiny rich guys(one definitively worse than the other), but I'll still root for the home team.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: America's Cup - 10 days to go! [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #201652
01/30/10 03:15 PM
01/30/10 03:15 PM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline OP
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Some training footage from this morning.





Also noteworthy that Alinghi was towed out of site before they hoisted any sails - and they came back in at the end of the day with their sails lowered and stowed in bags. Do they have a different set that are CiC? What might they be hiding?

Yesterday a tarp showed up covering the center of the rear beam and the stern of the central hull on USA-17. Nobody seems to know what's under there...graphics? some new secret? Maybe something like "Eat this Alinghi!". who knows?


Jake Kohl
Re: America's Cup - 10 days to go! [Re: Jake] #201654
01/30/10 04:02 PM
01/30/10 04:02 PM
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Cool video but that engine is LOUD.

Re: America's Cup - 10 days to go! [Re: Tony_F18] #201655
01/30/10 06:25 PM
01/30/10 06:25 PM
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Jake Offline OP
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Jake Kohl
Re: America's Cup - 10 days to go! [Re: Jake] #201680
01/31/10 06:18 PM
01/31/10 06:18 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,582
“an island in the Pacifi...
hobie1616 Offline
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“an island in the Pacifi...
Friday, 1/29/10 - Justice Kornreich of the New York Supreme Court informed the America's Cup defending yacht club, Société Nautique de Genève, and the challenging Golden Gate Yacht Club today via telephone conference that she will not hear the American challenger's complaint regarding the 'constructed in country' requirement of the Deed of Gift before the 33rd America's Cup Match which is scheduled to begin on February 8th.

This means the 33rd America's Cup is free to proceed as ordered by previous New York rulings: in Valencia on the 8, 10 and 12 February.

"This is excellent news. We are delighted that BMW Oracle's attempts to disqualify Alinghi and to win the America's Cup in court have been denied. We look forward to meeting them on the start line here in Valencia on February 8th to race for the Cup; something they can no longer try to avoid," said Ernesto Bertarelli.


US Sail Level 2 Instructor
US Sail Level 3 Coach
Re: America's Cup - 10 days to go! [Re: hobie1616] #201682
01/31/10 08:51 PM
01/31/10 08:51 PM
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Jake Offline OP
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Originally Posted by hobie1616
Friday, 1/29/10 - Justice Kornreich of the New York Supreme Court informed the America's Cup defending yacht club, Société Nautique de Genève, and the challenging Golden Gate Yacht Club today via telephone conference that she will not hear the American challenger's complaint regarding the 'constructed in country' requirement of the Deed of Gift before the 33rd America's Cup Match which is scheduled to begin on February 8th.

This means the 33rd America's Cup is free to proceed as ordered by previous New York rulings: in Valencia on the 8, 10 and 12 February.

"This is excellent news. We are delighted that BMW Oracle's attempts to disqualify Alinghi and to win the America's Cup in court have been denied. We look forward to meeting them on the start line here in Valencia on February 8th to race for the Cup; something they can no longer try to avoid," said Ernesto Bertarelli.


The spin machine is on full speed now. BMWO did not attempt to "DSQ" Alinghi...they were merely trying to get them to conform their sail inventory to the CiC clause in the Deed of Gift - and even offered time to allow them to remake sails to meet the requirement.

Alinghi NOT addressing this now leaves them susceptible to yet another way they may lose the cup should they manage to win on the water (albeit with illegal sails). It's like showing up to a Hobie regatta with a mylar Glen Ashby mainsail on your Hobie 16 but then publicly chastising anyone that protests you.


Jake Kohl
Re: America's Cup - 10 days to go! [Re: Jake] #201687
02/01/10 03:23 AM
02/01/10 03:23 AM
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Posts: 1,203
uk
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Exactly 1 week to race 1 start
If I have got my timings right;

6knots offshore dropping to 2knots variable

Race abandoned?


Paul

teamvmg.weebly.com
Re: America's Cup - 10 days to go! [Re: TEAMVMG] #201688
02/01/10 03:28 AM
02/01/10 03:28 AM
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Cape Town, South Africa
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From the video BMW ORACLE Racing : Making of USA -
"Using the most advanced materials and technology TO CREATE THE FASTEST SAILBOAT THAT`S EVER BEEN BUILT".....
Perhaps BMWO should be expecting a letter from Hydroptere`s legal team. wink

Re: America's Cup - 10 days to go! [Re: Steve_Kwiksilver] #201690
02/01/10 03:58 AM
02/01/10 03:58 AM
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Posts: 242
Brisveagas
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Mate i dont think Hydroptere would see which way that weapon went around a DOG course. If its not the officially the fastest, its definitely the Coolest.


Aido
Viper 288
Re: America's Cup - 10 days to go! [Re: Aido] #201691
02/01/10 04:47 AM
02/01/10 04:47 AM
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Brisvegas
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Brisvegas
Woohoo

I'm warming the computer and cooling the tinnies already. Leave all the legal b@#&sh^* behind and let's get on with the sailing - even if it is almost NZL vs NZL!

Re: America's Cup - 10 days to go! [Re: Aido] #201692
02/01/10 05:18 AM
02/01/10 05:18 AM
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Wouter Offline
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Quote

Mate i dont think Hydroptere would see which way that weapon went around a DOG course. If its not the officially the fastest, its definitely the Coolest.



It is only the fastest officially recorded sailboat over both on the 500 mtr stretch and the nautical mile and I REALLY don't see BMWO do 51.36 and 50.17 knots EVER.

It has beaten all other competitors, including the kiteboarders on this.

It the Hydropthere team didn't need a court room "in the process".

http://www.sailspeedrecords.com/500-metre-records.html
http://www.sailspeedrecords.com/nautical-mile-records.html


Some respect by the court warriors may be warranted here

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 02/01/10 05:41 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
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