A proposal for a first F16 HP competition during startup
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<br>Go to link :
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<br>http://www.geocities.com/f16hpclass/david_and_goliath_cup.html
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<br>and read about the David and Goliath Cup and once again give us your remarks and comments !
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<br>Wouter<br><br>

Wouter,
<br>Do the 20ft boats you beat on elapsed time have to be F20 Ie with kites of just 20ft.
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<br>Regards,
<br>Phill<br><br>

I weighted one thing against the other and finally decided to allow both 20th with and without genakers. Partly to keep things simple and the give Aussies a change at big point with their no genaker Taipan 5.7 and Nacra 5.8's. Besides any 20ft beaten by a 16 ft on elapsed time is an achievement and good promotion for the little 16 footers on steroids.
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<br>Please tell me when you see a oversight will you ? Don't hold back this time.
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<br>Wouter<br><br>

apart from a short uphill downhill course.. Cant see how a 49er no matter how well sailed will beat a 16 hp..
<br> Just have a look at the VYC yardsticks..
<br> Assuming the 16hp will be about the speed of an A Class Cat its rating will be 72ish
<br>49er is 83... Thats is 10 minutes slower around a course... an 18teen is a different fish...
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<br>any extra points if I beat a C Class?<br><br>

Hello Stewart,
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<br>The 49-er is controversial I agree. It is there however because the two designs are so similar in weigth, length and sailarea and because the skiffies tend to believe that planing is giving them an edge.
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<br>Personally I found that nearly all skiffs, smaller 29-ers and also lasers and bigger like laser 4000 and 49-er, are hard to beat in light air even when sailing a triangular course.
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<br>I know of the rating difference between the 49-er and cats but I f feel that this is very much influenced by heavy air performance of the skiffs.
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<br>Best comparison I had was when a Tiger Worlds crew Joe Barness and Andy ? raced a 49-er with two world particpants of several dinghy classes of which one was an Aussie. In the morning in the light air the 49-er won outright of the tiger and nearly all mono's got ranked in front of the packmof cats. In the afternoon the roles where reversed.
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<br>So I feel that (any) cats will win in heavier air but in light air something like an A-cat or F16HP is needed to beat the 49-er on elapsed.
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<br>So the decision I faced was in or out, and I choose in to p*ss them off for I think the F16HP will be able to beat them in light air too. And it is good promo ofcourse when we have a few 49-er scalps. BTW, you don't get much points for beating them.
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<br>But is makes the choice a controversial one; do you propose to take the 49-er out of the Cup ? Or does anyone else ? For then we'll make a poll out of it.
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<br>Point two :
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<br>Other points considered :
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<br>Beating a internationally ranked crew such a Bundock, Booth , Cavin Colby , W.F.Oliver or Steve Brewer.
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<br>Beating an 18 foot skiff (probably only possible when you race them in really heavy weather and the 18 flips because of control issues) (How fast are the 16 footers by the way ?)
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<br>Getting proportional points over any genaker boat beaten on corrected time.
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<br>Beating special boats like the ARC 22, roberts 27, roberts 25, Marstrom M20/M18 and the Randy's CFR.
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<br>I abandonned these point for reason of practicality and to keep the system simple. I consider most of these to be already covered in some way by beating any over 20 foot boats.
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<br>But if you feel the need to include an extra class of boats or to change an aspect please propose it so we can discuss it.
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<br>Wouter
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16s are roughly the same as a 14teen..
<br>kept back by their restrictions.. An open 16teen would be damn quick.. VYC 73-75 at a guess..
<br>Doubt is we would touch a well sailed 18teen.. A crap crew on an 18teen no worries.. but the top crews.. two chances ... none and bugger all...
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<br>I dont mind keeping 49ers in.. Wont have a lot of competition here so I will need some points..
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<br>as for planing/nonplaning.. that is a subject we have discussed a lot.. Yellow Pages is effectively the only planing cat/tri that I know of.. <br><br>

Okay thanks on the 16 ft-er.
<br>And I know a good crew on a 18 footer will never be beaten by a F16HP un less the 18ft crew parks it big time and flips and the F16HP keeps it up. But then again, the same would sort of apply when racing a good Tornado crew. F16 HP might have a better change but Bundock or Booth on a Tornado and ... hold on .. just checking the numbers ... eoohhh , the ratios come out close. Okay you might well stand a better change against the new tornado.
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<br>When you need the competition than I propose to keep the 49-ers in. I guess 49-er crews capability is high in Aus so you won't have an easy time this first Cup season; so this is fair to all. All europeans have big fleets of F18's and the USA particpants can well race Hobie 20's and Nacra 6.0. Thus we all stand a good change to win the first cup. That is when my boat is operational earlier enough. A well otherwise I just enter with my P16 fitted with my P18 genaker.
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<br>Agree on 49-er class in the cup ?
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<br>On planing / non planing; the cat is at an disadvantage there. The cat redeaming feature will it that it is relatively easy to controll when compared to the fastest of them all the 18 foot skiff. Maybe later the F16HP will produce a innovation putting it closer to the 18 foot skiff, the rule are open enough for that and I'm brooding on something. Don't tell anyone else will you ?
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<br>Greetings,
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<br>Wouter
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I have just done a search on Price and Cost for the F16HP and it seems that the subject is taboo except in general terms.
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<br>What do you think is the price of the F16HP will have to sell at to be successfull and what is the size of the market.
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<br>Will it be bigger than the F18/20 How will it compare with the Dart 18.
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<br>These sorts of answers are important
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<br>JP Snr<br><br>

Do you want answers or an official webpage that deals with these aspects ?
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<br>I know the answers to a few of these things but I have held back with respect to naming actual prices and costs of parts for that could be seen as officially endoursing one F16HP brand (or officially prefering one over another). I can tell you that right now there is a big price difference between the cheapest and most expensive F16HP. And I do mean a BIG difference.
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<br>The Stealth pricing is still unknown to me so I'm able to compare that to the others.
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<br>With respect to the other aspect I can only give my personal opinion (I haven't done a markt survey, sorry =) "joke")
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<br>Before I continu I must explain my personal situation :
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<br>- My F16HP , which is being privately build, will cost me only 25 % more than the cheapest F16HP and very much less than the most expensive F16HP
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<br>- I feel that F18's are just to expensive. When an A-cat by BIM can be had voor 8200,- euro than why should a F18 be 15000,- Euro ?
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<br>- I feel that there several ways of contruction thing cheaper that are not being used right now. Example, the string genaker tang when compared to the Stainless steel tang normally used. String and ring cost together 1 euro while stainless tang with isolator and pasta will cost at least a 150 Euro. More examples rudder housings, Trapwires, genaker boom (Nacra importer asks 500 Euro just for the blank but anodised pole !!, with hardware = 800 Euro). 800 Euro is what I payed for my whole P18 genaker setup including all blocks, sheets and the genaker itself !!
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<br>- The F16HP most be relatively inexpensive when it is to be a controlled development class. Nobody will experiment with different setups when parts of a boat or the whole boat is expensive. Furthermore It is found now that the secondhand market of the F18 is actually a still expensive. An F16HP new at the price of a secondhand F18 (3 years = still 10.000 euro when cheapest) will be a perfect selling argument.
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<br>My answers to your questions :
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<br>A good F16HP prices.
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<br>-1- About same as A-cat or only slightly above.
<br>-2- At about the same price as a secondhand F18
<br>-3- Low enough for a non active racer to accept when it is just a out of control hobby.
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<br>If you want a number : about 10.000 euro (= now US$ 9000)
<br>This is actually about the same price of an Hobie 16 with options.
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<br>Size of market : This is partly dependend on what we make it. Personally, some three teams/persons at my club would have bought a Taipan 4.9 two years ago when a respectable dealor / dealornetwork would have been presented. Reason, it is hard to find a crew but a exclusive solo craft exludes 2-up sailing with friends and girlfriends, back problems and loss of fun when dragging a heavy boat, need for performance at an acceptable price, 5000 Euro extra for a F18 is no less than 50 % of a cheaper boat like H16, H16 is not an attractive boat nor fast enough. Taipan both a 1-up and 2-up classes so it could be raced in (club) races in both configurations (when crew suddenly doesn't show up)
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<br>Size of market : personally; everybody that doesn't want to buy an F18 for what ever reason or that in the market for a extremely cheap boat becuase the are poor (students etc)
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<br>In NL the market for prindles, older nacras and Hobie 18's is pretty much dead because sailor either buy F18's or iF20's or buy old cheap (projects) boats for they are acceptable for the price. Even 5 year old nacra 5.5 's are offered for as low as 10 year old Prindle 18's because hardly anyone is prepaired to pay more for them when these classes are all but dead anyway.
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<br>It may be wishfull thinking but I think that a market gap was created when the F18 got more and more expensive. I'm sure that the four F16HP builders can't work together but if we do then we can create a completely new and yet uncovered area of catamaran sailors that could potentially be as big as the F18's. If only we all could work together on developping a race scene and share one replacement parts network. Maybe the builders are willing to do this under the F16HP class banner. People must feel supported and secure.
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<br>Right now I don;t know how to initiate this.
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<br>About Dart 18, How loyal are Dart 18 sailors ? How loyal are H16 sailors. I think that if the four builders can work (closely) together on non-direct-competitor issues and develop an race scene that we have a good change of attracting several sailors of these two classes.
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<br>Wouter<br><br>

Wouter,
<br>How about including 18sqs on the list of "hunted classes"?
<br>Phill<br><br>

Wouter<br><br>

Wouter,
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<br>I have read through your post and yes, I feel there is a lot of wishful thinking in it. If people ask for prices, we should tell them about the current situation, not about what we hope.
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<br>Warning for all: I am a dealer for AHPC.
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<br>1. While you seem to be good with your hands, most of the sailors are not and also don't care too much. From the relation home builders to standard boat buyers I would estimate that maybe 1 out of 100 does a major home building job, the rest just wants to buy and sail a standard production boat. When thinking/talking about prices for the F16HP, we should consider this and therefore see the home built F16HP and its cost saving potential as a rare bird. Let's talk about the standard situation, not the exception.
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<br>2. A BIM A Class is 9300 Euro incl. tax in Germany. Please let's not argue about the longevity of the BIM A Classes, but quality has its price, and Italy is not Poland. What I mean is BIM is at the lower end of the range of A Class prices. I can imagine that all of the other types are around 25.000 DM. (although I have little proof for this assumption).
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<br>3. Yes, anyone can make a gennaker tang with a string and ring, but how is the majority of sailors going to build their own rudder housings?
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<br>4. I am very certain that none of the potential F16HP manufacturers or their dealers will be able to sell a sloop with gennaker for below 10000 Euros. I assume that even a BIM F16 sloop with gennaker will be above 10000 EUros (albeit not much).
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<br>5. There is no reason why an F16HP boat could be produced substantially cheaper than an F18. SAvings with repsect to material (boat size) will be eaten up by add. labour cost to build the hulls close to the minimum weight allowed.
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<br>6. In order to give stable, longterm service, you need dealers, this cannot be done by the manufacturer himself nor by a network of volunteers. Volunteers come and go and will not take personal repsonsibility for their work. There is a lot of effort and financial risk for dealers (as I can tell from my own experience) and you have little chance to get rich. But sorry, this adds to the cost of a production boat.
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<br>7. If you hope to be able to build a class with home builders, I assume this will stay a small class. You will need to focus on the manufacturers and how to involve them. AS I see it, John Pierce currently is the only manufacturer interested in the F16Hp. If you continue to advertise the F16HP for below 10.000 Euros, this will stay so. I wouldn't be interested as a manufacturer either because that is not a good advertisement ("F16HP = the class of cheap home built rare birds").
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<br>So, let's put it this way:
<br>If you love boat building, have all the tools, like the only boat there is which can be home built, have plenty (and I mean plenty) of time to chase up parts and build the boat, if you don't need support and service from a dealer, do it. It can be done for around half of the price of a new boat. Btw, just not having enough money to buy a new boat will not help much (IMO, that is), because you actually have to love boat building, other wise one will hardly be able to finish this project. And don't forget how bad chances are if you want to/have to sell a home built boat.
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<br>If you are the average guy, have a job and a family which both need attention, have some other hobbies too, your fiddling skills are not on a high level,the money is there (at least for a used boat): buy a new or used production boat.
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<br>Waiting for those interesting comments,
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<br>Regards,
<br>Gebhard.<br><br>unreal sailor

Gebhard,
<br>It is true that boat self build always end up to cost more than first planed.
<br>But you can always try to build a boat between 2 or 3 friends,and share some cost on materials and the moulds and still been able to have you own personal boat.
<br>Some manufacturer may give the option to sale a kit boat so you could pick hulls from some one ,mast and beam from some one else and or different construction mat.as well.
<br>Look at the open 60 multi. they are all pretty much sharing theyre moulds and can pick which hull ,floats,rig,ect... which ever they feal is the best option for them.
<br>Another way to keep "the price down" is to give a max. limit in second hand resale value .
<br>You can spend as much as you want too on the boat but it can only be sold as for example 6000 euro max. at the end of the season,this rules is already in place with i think some ~28ft.multi class,the advantage it is self levelling no one is ready to spend 15000euro to only get 1/3 of it back after 1 or 2 seasons.
<br>Fabrice<br><br>

Fabrice,
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<br>thank you for your thoughts, yes there are a few ways to reduce the cost of a home built boat.
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<br>The idea about fixing the max. resale value is interesting, but where would you want to fix something like that? In the class rules? Who would control this rule, i.e. check that no boats are sold above the fixed limit?
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<br>Gebhard.<br><br>