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Re: America's Cup Countdown [Re: Smiths_Cat] #203215
02/13/10 11:54 AM
02/13/10 11:54 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
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Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
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West coast of Norway
Big diff is the rig, and time on the water I think. BMWO certainly manouvered as a tri when tacking/gybing, even if that is a minor point compared to their boatspeed.

Hope there is racing tomorrow as well, and that Glomgold, err Ernesto hands over the wheel to one of the pros becouse as long as Uncle Scrooge, err Larry dont drive..

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: America's Cup Countdown [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #203223
02/13/10 01:21 PM
02/13/10 01:21 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,221
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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EB said in the presser that he wasn't changing any crew including himself. I think alot of us here could do as good or better than that downwind leg.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: America's Cup Countdown [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #203225
02/13/10 01:31 PM
02/13/10 01:31 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 571
Hamburg
Smiths_Cat Offline
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Hamburg
Oh wow, that's a good comment. I guess you have already some expierence with sailing the Alinghi 5 or a comparable boat under those weather consitions you have only seen on TV.
I don't like EB as well, but he won the Bol d'or 5 times and was third in the Fastnet race and I like the fact that he takes the helm and the likly defeat on his shoulders. At least he stands his man.

Re: America's Cup Countdown [Re: Smiths_Cat] #203226
02/13/10 01:35 PM
02/13/10 01:35 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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David Ingram  Offline
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Originally Posted by Smiths_Cat
Oh wow, that's a good comment. I guess you have already some expierence with sailing the Alinghi 5 or a comparable boat under those weather consitions you have only seen on TV.
I don't like EB as well, but he won the Bol d'or 5 times and was third in the Fastnet race and I like the fact that he takes the helm and the likly defeat on his shoulders. At least he stands his man.


+1


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: America's Cup Countdown [Re: David Ingram] #203227
02/13/10 02:23 PM
02/13/10 02:23 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
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I think Larry should do the same and helm BMWO, but he is taking the safe route.

Re: America's Cup Countdown [Re: Smiths_Cat] #203228
02/13/10 02:23 PM
02/13/10 02:23 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,221
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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I agree about him standing his ground , but the windward hull,on the DW leg,looked like it was attached to a bungee chord or a yoyo. With the money invested in that boat,either he can't steer or an engineer screwed the pooch. Which do you think is the case? I'm not picking on EB, just saying I saw a whole lot of splashdowns. I think the engineers did a better job than that.
As far as experience on Alinghi, I've got three of them sittin' on the beach behind my house. They're easy to sail but the beach wheels are heavy.Geeeeezzzz. Obviously experience driving Alinghi is a tough commodity to come by.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: America's Cup Countdown [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #203229
02/13/10 02:29 PM
02/13/10 02:29 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,303
South Carolina
Jake Offline OP
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Jake  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 12,303
South Carolina
Smyth made a comment that he really felt like the mainsail was much too flat. I think that might lead to having trouble managing the power in the boat.


Jake Kohl
Re: America's Cup Countdown [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #203230
02/13/10 02:30 PM
02/13/10 02:30 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,221
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Originally Posted by Rolf_Nilsen
I think Larry should do the same and helm BMWO, but he is taking the safe route.

Maybe they should institute an owner/driver rule. I'd like to see that, but don't see it happening.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: America's Cup Countdown [Re: Smiths_Cat] #203231
02/13/10 02:34 PM
02/13/10 02:34 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
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Mary  Offline
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Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
I heard them say that BMWO weighs about 2,000 pounds more than Alinghi.

Re: America's Cup Countdown [Re: Smiths_Cat] #203232
02/13/10 02:35 PM
02/13/10 02:35 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Keith Offline
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Keith  Offline
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Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Originally Posted by Smiths_Cat
Originally Posted by Bajan_Bum
Originally Posted by Jake
heard at SA:

A wingie killed Alinghi.

Alinghi brought a cat to a DoG fight.

I probably know less about catamarans and racing than anybody else here, but I was wondering if it is really possible that a catamaran could beat a trimaran, especially in a case where each designer is doing his best to optimize speed.

Do you think BMWO is a tri? It sailed 99% of the time as a cat (center hull out of the water). So a cat has beaten another cat.
The big differences are in the size (length and width) and the rig, maybe in the LIDAR (doppler laser) wind measure equipment. I don't know about the weight difference. Overall BMWO has the better package for the wind speeds we saw yesterday. Maybe in other wind conditions the race will be closer, maybe not.


I guess technically when either one is riding on one hull they're a mono...

After watching the replay, I'll change my earlier comment about A looking faster through the tacks. The main thing on that I noticed during the live coverage was that it looked like a lot of time was spent on BOR just getting ready (the ant march of crew from one ama to the other for instance). After watching it again on replay, I'd say A is toast there as well unless they learn to get the boat back up to full boil quicker.

On the cat versus tri thing - the tri config helps the tacking. When the boat comes down as she turns, that main hull is most of what is in the water (amas are touching, but not carrying the main load). There's generous rocker in that one hull, so the boat is going turn a lot easier than A. When A goes through the turn both hulls are in the water, not much rocker to the hulls (forward anyway). She still seems to turn nice given that. The headsail management looks easier on A going upwind and tacking - would only affect things if wind was light enough for BOR to use the jib upwind.

I was also noticing on the replay that A pitches a lot more in the waves upwind - I hadn't noticed it as much watching live. There was a definite contrast to BOR being more steady and A pitching. So, wing or no, A having gone to the straight boards might have also been a mistake.

The big overlapping sail downwind on A just looked like a main-choker to me. I think they may have relied too much on the light air experience from Lake Geneva - what works there may not have as much direct use in other venues. Seeing how much camber was put into BOR's wing downwind made A's sails look way too flat.

And I think it's obvious that A's crew/team doesn't have the knowledge of the desired settings for each wind range and sea state - too much effort hunting for the right config. I think they found it at points on the course but by then BOR had put more distance on them.

So, my new winter project - canting wing sail and banana boards on my F-27...

Can't wait to watch tomorrow...

Re: America's Cup Countdown [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #203233
02/13/10 02:35 PM
02/13/10 02:35 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
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Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
As I wrote earlier. To me this looks just like a Uncle Scrooge vs. Glomgold grugde match. Owners drive, that should go into the Deed of Gift in my opinion just to complete the illusion.

Re: America's Cup Countdown [Re: Mary] #203234
02/13/10 02:36 PM
02/13/10 02:36 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
I wonder if the curved daggerboards (foils) on BMWO were an advantage. Supposedly Alinghi has the ability to use either straight or curved boards, but chose to use straight boards Friday.

Re: America's Cup Countdown [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #203235
02/13/10 02:40 PM
02/13/10 02:40 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Keith Offline
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Keith  Offline
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Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
I agree about him standing his ground , but the windward hull,on the DW leg,looked like it was attached to a bungee chord or a yoyo. With the money invested in that boat,either he can't steer or an engineer screwed the pooch. Which do you think is the case? I'm not picking on EB, just saying I saw a whole lot of splashdowns. I think the engineers did a better job than that.
As far as experience on Alinghi, I've got three of them sittin' on the beach behind my house. They're easy to sail but the beach wheels are heavy.Geeeeezzzz. Obviously experience driving Alinghi is a tough commodity to come by.


Yeah, the first third of the downwind leg was painful to watch as A carved up hard to power up, then drive down a bit, carry then splash, then repeat. Combo of things leading to that, IMO, but it sure didn't look good for the helm...



Re: America's Cup Countdown [Re: Keith] #203239
02/13/10 02:44 PM
02/13/10 02:44 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,584
+31NL
Tony_F18 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Tony_F18  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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+31NL
Originally Posted by Keith

Yeah, the first third of the downwind leg was painful to watch as A carved up hard to power up, then drive down a bit, carry then splash, then repeat. Combo of things leading to that, IMO, but it sure didn't look good for the helm...


Jimmy said they had a big puff which they where able to carry a long way down the course.
I just watched a replay of Eurosport and you can see that BMWO was also making quite a lot of course changes, at one point I see them bearing away something like 45 degrees.
Shifty conditions are never easy to sail in and I wonder what happened if you would sail 10 races, what the outcome would be.

Re: America's Cup Countdown [Re: Tony_F18] #203243
02/13/10 02:54 PM
02/13/10 02:54 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,221
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Looks like they've postponed 2 hours for Sunday ,already.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: America's Cup Countdown [Re: Tony_F18] #203247
02/13/10 03:49 PM
02/13/10 03:49 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 571
Hamburg
Smiths_Cat Offline
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Smiths_Cat  Offline
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Hamburg
Originally Posted by Tony_F18

Jimmy said they had a big puff which they where able to carry a long way down the course.
I just watched a replay of Eurosport and you can see that BMWO was also making quite a lot of course changes, at one point I see them bearing away something like 45 degrees.
Shifty conditions are never easy to sail in and I wonder what happened if you would sail 10 races, what the outcome would be.

Yes, as I said if you aren't there at the same time and place, you can't know about wind and waves. And I think you was closest from all of us. However I think that after 10 races BMWO would be similar succesful. The possible wind range of Alinghi seems to small.

Considering the rocking horse behaviour (BMWO did as well upwind), I think that most has to do with hull length (30ft more for BMWO) and hull shape. Alinghi has more reserve volume in the hulls (much more freeboard) and as consequence is rocking more. No big surprise that the larger and heavier boat moves more steady.
In theory, BMWO could use its sensors and flap actuators to damp the rocking motion, but this is pure speculation from my side.

Re: America's Cup Countdown [Re: Keith] #203249
02/13/10 04:15 PM
02/13/10 04:15 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,305
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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Luiz  Offline
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Posts: 1,305
Asuncion, Paraguay
Originally Posted by Keith

I guess technically when either one is riding on one hull they're a mono...

I was also noticing on the replay that A pitches a lot more in the waves upwind - I hadn't noticed it as much watching live. There was a definite contrast to BOR being more steady and A pitching.

So, my new winter project - canting wing sail and banana boards on my F-27...

Can't wait to watch tomorrow...


On one hull they are monos... but for ballast, stability, hull shape, drag, speed, etc.

The pitching difference relates to Alinghi having bow overhangs to measure at 90 ft LWL, while BMWO's floats are free from measurement restrictions, the boat resting on the mainhull for measurement. BMWO is better balanced. It also relates to the inclination of B's amas, as I posted before in this same thread.

Also dreaming of a wing and curved board, but already have a cascading system for canting.

Attached Files
Reducao Brandais.GIF (132 downloads)

Luiz
Re: America's Cup Countdown [Re: Mary] #203257
02/13/10 05:13 PM
02/13/10 05:13 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,303
South Carolina
Jake Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 12,303
South Carolina
Originally Posted by Mary
I heard them say that BMWO weighs about 2,000 pounds more than Alinghi.


The official rumour is that A5 is 8,000 lbs and USA-17 is 12,000 lbs. I think they have USA-17 a little heavy. I would believe 10,000 at 2,000 lb heavier...but I think they might well be closer than that.


Jake Kohl
Re: America's Cup Countdown [Re: Tony_F18] #203258
02/13/10 05:33 PM
02/13/10 05:33 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Keith Offline
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Keith  Offline
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Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Originally Posted by Keith

Yeah, the first third of the downwind leg was painful to watch as A carved up hard to power up, then drive down a bit, carry then splash, then repeat. Combo of things leading to that, IMO, but it sure didn't look good for the helm...


Jimmy said they had a big puff which they where able to carry a long way down the course.
I just watched a replay of Eurosport and you can see that BMWO was also making quite a lot of course changes, at one point I see them bearing away something like 45 degrees.
Shifty conditions are never easy to sail in and I wonder what happened if you would sail 10 races, what the outcome would be.


I remember seeing that. They took a big puff and drove down at the same moment that A was flat and heading up for heat (at least that's the way it looked from the camera angle). I wouldn't expect either to sail a straight course downwind, that wasn't the point. But BOR's heating and diving actually kept the boat rolling - either the boat has an easier groove or Spithill is better at keeping it there. A5 would go flat in the water before heating up in the early part of the DW leg. They got in a better grove in the lower part of the downwind leg, consistently keeping the boat flying.

10 race scenario - my guess is that after a couple of races the A5 crew would be more in tune with the boat and things would even out a bit, with the overall advantage over 10 still to BOR.

Re: America's Cup Countdown [Re: Keith] #203259
02/13/10 05:40 PM
02/13/10 05:40 PM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 678
Palm Beach County
TheManShed Offline
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Palm Beach County
Was A5 pitching more from the water ballast? Once they blew the water out it seemed to handle better.


Mike Shappell
www.themanshed.com
TMS-20 Builder
G-Cat 5.7 - Current Boat
NACRA 5.2 - early 70's

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