"I had a nice talk with the wing desingers and they gave me some insight about the move and MORE, which I'll do a piece soon. "

When and where? Do you see wings on small cats? 20' and less?

Although the Americas Cup is raced in the match racing format, it is not (and never has been) a "match race". Match racing is meant to be run with identical boats. It is a test of boathandling and tactics, not boatspeed. The Americas Cup is a technology race, intended to award the fastest boat.

Good afternoon Mr. Isotope:

Do you feel up to having a go at the rules again? I have a question, more suited to a new thread.

No. Among of many practical reasons, it will not be beneficial. We had this discussion a couple of days ago (search for wingsail)
You can also ask Ben Hall. He sailed a wing on a A-cat in 2008, and wasn't superior to soft sails.

Cheers,

Klaus

I wouldn't consider that experiment "final". Just because the first one of it's kind didn't prove superiority, I'm sure that's not the last rigid wing sail we'll see on an a-cat.

Build a small version of the BMWO wing, with a taper towards the top and several adjustable flaps, with a mid slot to adjust for even more camber, there you go...
Now, who's going to trim it for you on an A cat? Too many strings for that I think. It might work on a 2 up boat, and since a new mast for an I 20 is about $10K, why not start there? I'm sure Ben could build something suitable for about that amount!

You could ask Ben to build you one for your blade.

Normally in match racing, "hunting" is legal. That is, RRS 16.2 (the "anti-hunting" rule) is deleted by rule C2.5. Match racing is intedend to be a game of tactics, so closer interactions are permitted than in fleet racing.

However, I heard one of the commentators say something about rule 16 changes in the sailing instructions to give a port-tack boat more room to avoid a starboard boat, so I presume that "other restrictions apply". It may be that Alinghi would not be permitted to bear down on BMWO in a crossing. Not knowing all the rules in place, I can't say.

I understand that James Spithill is an experienced match racer. Russell Coutts was also on board for race 2. Alinghi had Brad Butterworth as tactician. Those guys presumably understand match racing far better than we do. Nevertheless, both teams made some pretty basic mistakes. BMWO, after charging down Alinghi in the first start, and masterfully drawing a foul, stalled and got stuck in irons. BMWO also didn't cover Alinghi in race 2. When the wind shifted and filled in on the right, BMWO saw her lead evaporate. Alinghi made serious errors in both prestart sequences. There's simply no excuse for her being out of the box in the second start. She messed up her first finish as well. I also believe Alinghi could have tried to draw an offsetting penalty at the close crossing in race 2.

All Alinghi needed to do was slow down a bit so that the boats were on a collision course (which is legal even under fleet racing rules). BMWO would need to either tack, slow down herself, or take a big duck. If she tacked, Alinghi could drive her off the course. If she slowed, Alinghi could simply pace her. If BMWO ducked, she risked missing the layline. If BMWO didn't keep clear, at least Alinghi's penalty would be cancelled.

I suspect BMWO could have slowed, ducked Alinghi, and still made the windward mark. From the Virtual Eye track, James Spithill appeared able to steer a course several boatlengths above the weather mark after the cross. Had he done so, then Alinghi would have been left having to tack when moving slow. That would have been even worse than crossing was for Alinghi, but I still think she should have tried.

My overall impression of both races was that the BMWO crew sailed their boat nearer to its potential than Alinghi's team did. In some situations, BMWO's boat was simply faster, but in others, I think the race could have been a lot closer.

Those are just my observations from the armchair - worth what you paid for them. It was fantastic to watch those amazing boats sail and I wish I could do half as well.

Regards,
Eric

Sure - in a new thread.

Certainly not the last one, and Ben Halls attempt was not the first one as well. A wing sail is much easier to build for a homebuilder than making a good soft sail, so yes, good opportunity to see more of them. But it doesn't mean they are faster nor they will be mainstream. Even the fast tri foiler never made it to mainstream...

The next question would be, at which size a wing sail has the opportunity to be better. 20ft, 25ft? I guess rather 25ft, maybe a foiling platform could help to go to smaller size.

Theres an ancillary rumor going around on top of the shenaniganas that the SNG people tried to pull on the RC boat, Lucien was on the radio with A5 telling them that there would be no race that day and thus A5 was out of position.

well, we don't know how difficult the boats are to sail. Sitting on the canape in front of a tv and judge that Spithill or EB made some stupid mistakes... If I just see that they have to helm the boats with a steering wheel instead of a tiller, how can thez have the right feedback from the boat with that. The traveller and sheets have servo assisted winches. What wind to you feel on deck, what is the wind 150ft above your head. It is totally different to what we are used with from our boats.

The guy helming for the new CoR is an employee of BMWO, and the President of that team is the owners wife.
Different people, same BS?

All rumor is suspect. I don't want to draw conclusions based on hearsay. If that story is true, it might explain Alinghi's flying the red flag. Still, at that level, boats should be prepared to race (not leave the racing area) until abandonment is signalled.

I'm not sure I follow your argument. Are you saying that Alinghi was out of position because the crew couldn't handle the boat? They are far, far better sailors than we.

What would you call going into irons one minute before the start? What would you call being out of the starting area during the sequence? I'd call them mistakes - ones that the world's top sailors shouldn't be making.


Wheels give feedback too. So do the 250 onboard sensors (supposedly how many BMWO has). I'm sure both crews had vastly better understanding of the wind conditions onboard (and above) their boats than any of us sailing by feel.

DUH,

I'm guessing your are JC.

No I did not intent to blame anyone personally, but rather the general drift that had developed over time where E. and A. were almost described invariably as the devil incarnate. Now I respect team BMWO more then E. and A. for their ability to remain respectful of the other team during the event and providing coverage of A. via their own promo channels.

Neither am I refering to any specific article or report. I did indeed withnessed both the official AC feed as the SA version. I do not pretent to have seen all articles or to be completely on a par with all the developments over the last 2.5 years. Maybe E. is truly a swine I don't know, but I doubt whether whether everyone in team A. is and these other person deserve some credit and positive coverage. All I'm saying is that I became disinterested in the BMWO - fan base coverage (during the event and before) because it practically came down to "look what an **** E. is" and "see what the bastard child team A. has done now"

I think telling it like it is does not necessarily mean doing character assasination on both the leader and a whole team.

Point in case; I thought the claim by BMWO that RAK was in danger of being invaded by the Iranians to be completely unhinged as well. Additionally, I thought the claim that A. couldn't use the 3D sails because the basic components were made in USA to be an inherently unfair stance unworthy of the spirit of a fair race.

As a defense, you seem to paint me squarely in the corner of E. and team A. Apparently, the concept of "with us or against us" has founds its way to the sport of sailing and the AC as well. I've kept the choice of my favourite team of the airwaves; but I can say that I don't recognize myself in your assumption.




Indeed, in this case you sound just like E. in the final press conference. I didn't like it when E. did and neither do I now that you (or SA) does it.

Note, that doesn't mean that I'm an enemy of either now !

I feel you can dislike a part of someone and still respect another part of the same person (organisation). Life is a painted with a palet of greyscales afterall and I'm sure you guys feel the same about my person.

Coming to that point (as you introduce this into the discussion). Maybe I do symphatize (spelling ?) with E. because I too was subject to a similar vitrol at one time. Neither I did have concrete plans to "conquer and rule the world" like some evil mastermind from a James Bond movie. Some things are fun in movies but not in real life. I can accept that E. or I did things that warranted a sound rebuke but I don't think either of us deserved the full "evil empire" treatment. In case of E. he stepped up to the plate, defending the cup, when based from obviously a disadvantaged position. Hell, they had to helikopter out their boat to open water by virtue of the DOG rule that it had to be build in the home nation of the team. Who is not to say that this necessasity alone limited the A5 design in profound ways ? They used the largest Soviet era helikopter for the job.

I think E. could be alot more open and well mannered but that doesn't take away that A5 is a great boat and an inspiring design; JUST AS MUCH AS USA-17 IS.

I feel 2 races was to short to see the best performance out of A5 ; I would have loved a 7 race format and see team A. getting dialed in as much as team BMWO appeared to be. Sure BMWO is the better design, I think that much is clear, but I think the more conventional (soft sail) A5 did show great potential indeed. 5 min lead over what, a 140 min race, is not that large a difference. Like I said it wouldn't be the first time that the slower design won the race.

I think everybody has got to respect the fact that Team A. succesfully completed their AC multihull project. It didn't break, it was in the same ball park performancewise to BMWO (although obviously disadvantaged) and they didn't cheat on BMWO on the water. Maybe that is less what L. and BMWO did, but it is not nothing either. We've got to respect that. We also got to respect the way the whole coverage comes across on the larger (not well informed) public (like myself ?) ; the eternal dissing of A. (deserved or not deserved) grew stale and turned me off. Again, I"m not in any way saying you did this; I'm just refering to the large fan base behind BMWO who seemed to have condensated around a site like SA.

Actually, all this reminds me of some valued American saying :

Don't wrestle with E. ehhh pigs; you both get dirty and pigs like it.



You conclude your post by the following unrelated (To the AC33) statement




This is a form of character assassination that has absolutely no valuable content what so ever. If cat sailing people never heard of me in NL then that says more about them then me. Am I a great cat racer ? No, and I never said I was. Am I a person that everybody loves from the get go ? Not likely. Am I the founder and initial main force behind the only NEW international catamaran class to have achieved success in the last 15 years ? A class that shows that some of the more mainstream products to be overpriced, "under state of the art" or overly selfcongratulory about their own performance ? Hell yes. Now if any self respecting cat sailor is unaware of that then I don't know about his or her personal credentials in this field.

I can assure everyone here that the (commercial) boys that matter in this field of small beach cats know who I am. They don't understand me or whatever happened in this 16 foot range in general, that is true. Many even do not respect the situation or me personally, but they sure as hell know about the F16's and that some wildcats out of nowhere stood them up and successfully implemented a superior product on a "shoe string" budget. Despite much redicule in the early years; I might add. Remember the midgets ?

If they are smart then they should consider what these wildcats could have achieved if they had the possession and support of a large established builder. They just might discover some valuable lessons here.


But indeed, this isn't about you or me personally, but rather about the AC33.

Personally, I'm thrilled to look at the solutions A5 implemented to make a basic cat design this big. I respect their work. I deeply respect the choice to go with the wing on BMWO and the way this team handled herself both on and off the water (despite some court choices). I was never before really interested in the AC; this time I truly was.

Other then that I personally respect you JC and my earlier post was definately NOT a hidden personal attack on you.

Regards,

Wouter

Jake,



Hall's mast wasn't the first try; not even inside the A-cat class.

Wouter

Sorta like this post from you. I actually thought you were changing into a semi rational person, growing up a little bit, but it appears you are still the NARROW MINDED BLOW HARD you always were. Oh Well.

Todd

Hey Todd,




You are right about one thing. I don't believe in false modesty.

Creating and establishing the truly lightweight and fast F16 class on a shoe-string budget together with Phill Brander does earn me some bragging rights, mate.

I'm sorry if you can't handle that.

Can we get back to the AC33 now ?

Wouter

I think you guys are missing my point...while I don't know of other rigid wing attempts in the a-cat class, my point is that it hasn't seen much development on an a-cat platform. Given the fact that it's working quite well for the c-class catamarans, I can't imagine that it won't scale to a similar advantage on the A-cat if the design is perfected.