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Hello and IF20 questions #20347
06/06/03 12:00 PM
06/06/03 12:00 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 8
Mumbles UK
Fluffy Offline OP
stranger
Fluffy  Offline OP
stranger

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 8
Mumbles UK
Hi everyone, I am learning to sail an Inter 20 at Mumbles UK and have been reading Rick White's book and its great. So thanks Rick and Mary for that.

Two questions:
There are three positions for the jib sheeting device, we just use the middle one, in what circumstances might we use the other ones?

In a blow we seem to get blown over when turning upwind at the end of the run. I try to speed up, dump the jib, let the traveller out and turn as fast as possible but sometimes we still get blown over, any help appreciated.

Regards
Simon Jenkins (IF20 164 "Fluffy")
www.simonjenkins.co.uk/

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Hello and IF20 questions [Re: Fluffy] #20348
06/06/03 12:40 PM
06/06/03 12:40 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 180
Chelmsford, MA
Barry Offline
member
Barry  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 180
Chelmsford, MA
Simon
The other hole I only use in very high winds. The inner hole only in 5knts of wind. I have a self tacking jib now so I don't mess with it much.
As far as the leeward rounding. I would come in with as much speed as I can. (I am using a snuffer)I will let my crew know I am turning and steer up as quickly as I can. I think the key part is having good speed going in to the turn.
Barry

Re: Hello and IF20 questions [Re: Barry] #20349
06/06/03 01:28 PM
06/06/03 01:28 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 8
Mumbles UK
Fluffy Offline OP
stranger
Fluffy  Offline OP
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 8
Mumbles UK
Barry,
Thanks for that, so is it inner hole in very light, middle hole most of the time and outer hole in survival conditions.

I have a snuffer on order so when we have that up and running it should allow me to keep some speed through the manoeuver etc.....hopefully

Other than the obvious - self tacking - what are the advantages of the self tacking jib?

Simon

Re: Hello and IF20 questions [Re: Fluffy] #20350
06/06/03 01:59 PM
06/06/03 01:59 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 180
Chelmsford, MA
Barry Offline
member
Barry  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 180
Chelmsford, MA
Simon
The self-tacking jib is the best think since sliced bread. Upwind doesn't make much change unless you have a new crew ( the tacker will tack the jib perfectly each time). Downwind is the real advantage. The crew just has to worry about the spinnaker not the jib. It also helps me. When I get the perfect angle downwind, I am able to jibe and get right back on that same angle because the jib was never adjusted.

On a side note: I heard the the F20 class in EU is thinking about bring the sail area up to the North American numbers. Peter Vink has sailed the boat in the North American form and liked the extra power.It may be BS but interesting at that. Now wouldk be the time to change it because there are only two F20 boats out there.
Barry

Re: Hello and IF20 questions [Re: Barry] #20351
06/06/03 04:36 PM
06/06/03 04:36 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
sail6000 Offline
old hand
sail6000  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
Hi Barry -and Fluffy -

Sounds great on the sail area if they change to the extra 15 sq ft in the main by adding the larger sq top -

B-Do you advocate adopting the i-F-20 rules then ,
the only major problem being the weight difference -
418 LB in the iF 20 RULES ,-but Inter 20s here weighing 390 -or 28 LB less.
Others are minor -

Can try to add to the spin and capsize experiences -- -experienced the same thing rounding up with the spin -
Think when the wind is up the spin is being sailed at lower angles due to apparent wind sometimes in more of a stall mode as you round up your "heating it up " more force ,-more speed at higher angles , Its generally safer to maintain your course towards the mark and drop the shute in high winds,-
Stay out on the wire yourself throughout,-once the spin is down THEN -travel out , let out some main , then round up and get the crew back on the wire also to help keep that closer course and wind angle from flipping the boat .
hope that helps
How is the i-F 20 racing in the U K this season ?
Read about the iF-20 championships this year with more than 100 expected .
It was nice to see the U K team of Mark and Will back for the Tybee 500 -hope to see more next year -

Re: Hello and IF20 questions [Re: Fluffy] #20352
06/07/03 10:43 AM
06/07/03 10:43 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Perhaps in the heavy air, it might help if you leave the dagger boards up until you have made the turn and are headed to weather. This will reduce the tendency of the boat to bite so hard in the water and capsize.


Jake Kohl
Your sail is going from stalled to full power! [Re: Fluffy] #20353
06/08/03 02:17 PM
06/08/03 02:17 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline

Carpal Tunnel
RickWhite  Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
In the attached diagram there are two items. The first is a sail that is over trimmed and stalling, indicated by the backside telltale dancing or acting up. They say it develops 100% efficiency -- or the same effect as a barndoor.
The second item is a sail trimmed properly as indicated by the backside telltale flowing. It is said to develop 180% efficiency. Obviously much better in the power department.
The funny thing is that when the backside telltale begins to flow, the jump from 100% to 180% is immediate.., and not in steps or in graduation. So, you get an immediated 80% more power, so to speak.
Now, when you are sailing downwind with the spinnaker your mainsail is normally sheeted in as if it were sailing a close to beam reach.
After taking down the spinnaker, the boat slows down considerably and most folks don't adjust the main by letting it out. Therefore it stalls -- dropping the main's efficiency to 100% -- you know, the barn door again.
Next, most folks round the mark with this configuration and when the mainsail goes from stall to full power, it is immediate and not gradual. Therefore, many boats flip right there at the leeward mark. That is why you see so much carnage at the C mark.

The answer is that after taking down the spinnaker, ease the mainsheet so the sail is not stalled. Then as you are rounding the mark sheet and steer at the same time, keeping the backside telltale flowing the entire time -- you will not experience the sudden rush of power that way and will be sailing through the turn faster as well.
Hope this helps,
Rick

Attached Files
20579-TELLTALE.jpg (106 downloads)

Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
Re: Hello and IF20 questions [Re: Fluffy] #20354
06/08/03 10:25 PM
06/08/03 10:25 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 51
Bridge City,Texas
mcole Offline
journeyman
mcole  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 51
Bridge City,Texas
Can you be more specific on the use of the three different positions for the I-20 jib?

Regards,
Mike Cole


Mike Cole Inter 20 #483
Re: Hello and IF20 questions [Re: sail6000] #20355
06/09/03 03:26 PM
06/09/03 03:26 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 8
Mumbles UK
Fluffy Offline OP
stranger
Fluffy  Offline OP
stranger

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 8
Mumbles UK
Barry,

I am quite happy with the smaller version.....for now

Simon

Re: Hello and IF20 questions [Re: mcole] #20356
06/09/03 03:34 PM
06/09/03 03:34 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 8
Mumbles UK
Fluffy Offline OP
stranger
Fluffy  Offline OP
stranger

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 8
Mumbles UK
Rick,

Yes thats great, thanks, I'll put it into practice on the water.

Simon

I Did Omit a little bit of info, sorry! [Re: Fluffy] #20357
06/10/03 09:04 AM
06/10/03 09:04 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline

Carpal Tunnel
RickWhite  Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
Basically, there are two approaches to the leeward mark. You can approach on starboard (best approach) or on port tack.
Starboard is preferred because you have inside room on all port tack boats and since you are the right-of-way boat, you also have the right to make a tactical mark rounding, i.e., enter wide and exit close to the mark.
But first, assume you are approaching on port tack. You need to steer below the mark so you can have a good tactical mark rounding. And for a standard spin drop (no Hooter or Snuffer System) the helmsman has to steer down deeper to create a vacuum for the spin to be doused. Which if fine because you do want to do an "enter wide, exit close" mark rounding.
Now we are back to the question you asked. Here you will have to let the mainsheet go, and bring the traveler center to prepare for the mark rounding.
At that point and while the spin is being dropped, your mainsail backside tell tales should be flowing.
As you begin to head up, you will need to sheet in at the same time (probably hand over hand -- in other words quickly). And you must sheet and steer at the same time. You cannot sheet and then steer, or steer and then sheet. You must develop a way to do both at the same time.
And you cannot use the mainsheet block's cleat -- every time you try to grab a handful of sheet you will have to look back at the block to find the sheet. But, you should be looking forward at the mark -- like a race car driver always has to look at the inside of the turn.
Some folks like to simply pull the traveler in with the sheet already pretty well sheeted, but this is not as effective and will make the sail stall more easily.., and then when the stall goes to lift, you get that 80% rush again.
Best to sheet in -- you will find the telltales behave much better and basically you are simply taking the twist off the sail while sheeting.

Now on the starboard approach, come to mark about two boat lengths out with normal sheeting. While you are initiating the jibe, the area too lee of the main will be a vacuum for the spin to come down. This time, however, you do not need to adjust the mainsheet.
In my seminars I teach folks to jibe with a certain pattern. Say you are on starboard tack. You begin the turn and work your way to the back of the boat, hand the tiller extension from your left hand to your right hand on the other side of the sheets. (don't change the adjustment of the sheet or traveler)
After you have the tiller ext. in your right hand, use your now free left hand to throw the sheets (and sail) to the starboard side, getting you on port tack.
That way you have your hand on the tiller at all times.
Once that is mastered, it really comes in handy for starboard approach mark roundings.

Here is how you do it:
Part of it is the same. You begin the turn and work your way to the back of the boat, hand the tiller extension from your left hand to your right hand on the other side of the sheets. (don't change the adjustment of the sheet).
[color:"red"] Here is the difference [/color]
After you have the tiller ext. in your right hand, use your now free left hand to pull the traveler to center.., instead of throwing the sheets. This has the same effect as throwing the sheets(and sail) to the starboard side, getting you on port tack. However, after the jibe you want to go to windward. The sail going to the other side will push your bow right up to nearly close hauled and you will only have a handful of sheet to pull in. Unlike the port approach where you had a ton of sheet to pull in.
In my seminars we call the starboard approach drill the "Slam Dunk Slant."
BY the way, this is all covered in my video on Mark Roundings, and the other video on Downwind Sailing. If interested we also have them in PAL version, on our website store. Catsailor's Online Marine Store
Good luck,
Rick


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
Re: I Did Omit a little bit of info, sorry! [Re: RickWhite] #20358
06/11/03 09:35 AM
06/11/03 09:35 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 8
Mumbles UK
Fluffy Offline OP
stranger
Fluffy  Offline OP
stranger

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 8
Mumbles UK
Rick, that is very useful info thanks, and I look forward to the videos. I'm still a bit confused why you dont get the 100/180 effect immediately after the "Slam Dunk Slant" with centering the traveller during the jibe etc.

Simon

Re: I Did Omit a little bit of info, sorry! [Re: Fluffy] #20359
06/11/03 12:38 PM
06/11/03 12:38 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Simon,
It's because your main should still be way out. Traveler centered, mainsheet out, and then, as Rick explained, you sheet in the main WHILE you are making the turn to go upwind, so the sail is coming in at the same pace as the angle of the boat to the wind is changing. If you bring the mainsheet in BEFORE you start the turn, the sail will be stalled at the beginning and eventually you will reach the point in your turn where the sail is no longer stalled, and WHAM!

Sorry, I had to answer you because Rick is out of town until next week.

Re: I Did Omit a little bit of info, sorry! [Re: Mary] #20360
06/11/03 01:46 PM
06/11/03 01:46 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 8
Mumbles UK
Fluffy Offline OP
stranger
Fluffy  Offline OP
stranger

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 8
Mumbles UK
Mary,

Thanks, that is now clear, I'm going to practice this Slam Dunk Slant" this weekend.

Thanks and regards to both
Simon

Simon


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