Announcements
New Discussions
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 4 1 2 3 4
Re: News for the F16 class [Re: Seeker] #205272
03/11/10 06:23 AM
03/11/10 06:23 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Quote

Funny how Wouter is suppose to pay 100 euros for a measurment of his boat and no one has a problem with that



And that at this time is still INCOMPLETE, despite requests/complaints from my side.

The measurer (also chief F16 measurer) refuses to note down the weight of my F16 on my measurement form, despite the fact that my boat is 15 kg overweight with respect to the minimum class weight.

Stated reason is that that is the way "they" do it in the A-class and that boat weights may change (or be modified) over time (but sail area and other dimensions may not ?). Funny that all F18 measurement forms (the true parent of the f16 class) do show the measured weights.

Personally I would love for my boat to just age 15 kg lighter but that is probably my sarcastic persona ! grin

Other then that I would like to have a fully legal measurement form when I pay 100 Euro's to get one. Or is that my attention seeking alter-ego ?


Honestly, I'm really not making this stuff up !

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 03/11/10 06:25 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
--Advertisement--
Re: News for the F16 class [Re: Wouter] #205273
03/11/10 07:12 AM
03/11/10 07:12 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
old hand
Stewart  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Wouter. to be fair the issue of exact weight is a red herring.

The box rule states only a minimum weight not maximum!.
Secondly there is a logic to not to raise exact weight. That is ratings!!
If one F16 weights 105 and another is 140kg then under the rating systems we have two separate ratings for the class!! So unless you wish to split the class only the minimum weight box needs ticking.

both of these arguments you already know..

Re: News for the F16 class [Re: Stewart] #205323
03/11/10 09:50 AM
03/11/10 09:50 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Stewart

The issue is not about the absolute values of the weight (other then that my boat is indeed compliant)

The issue is about whether an incomplete measurement form (with not all fields being filled in) is legitimate. In my case the field reserved for specifying the ready-to-sail weight is left open. If it had said "compliant" then yes the situation would have been better but it doesn't.

In my opinion there is no good argument in maintaining this situation.

Either the Chief measurer himself intentionally supplied me with an incomplete and invalid measurent form. (maintaining his stance when made aware of this)

Or the class will now accept incomplete measurement forms as being valid and thus open a can of worms for the long term.



I feel we should only consider COMPLETE measurement forms as being valid and indeed this also seems to be the spirit of the F16 class rules such as suggested by the wording of say rule 3.2.4

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 03/11/10 09:52 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: News for the F16 class [Re: Wouter] #205336
03/11/10 10:46 AM
03/11/10 10:46 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
Carpal Tunnel
John Williams  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
Originally Posted by Wouter
Funny that all F18 measurement forms (the true parent of the f16 class) do show the measured weights.


F18 measurers in the US leave the all-up weight box blank. All-up weight is checked at major events for compliance, but because variability in lines, blocks, tillers, ect., can be expected throughout the season, our measurers are not required to fill the box in - just check for compliance.

From Your Parent


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: News for the F16 class [Re: John Williams] #205339
03/11/10 11:02 AM
03/11/10 11:02 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
Carpal Tunnel
pgp  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
The measurement form is available here: http://www.formula16.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=21 if you have access.

A group of us will be traveling to Coral Gables for a training seminar with Carla Schiefer on the 23rd. We expect to be up and running with full certification, to include weighing and measuring, for the Nationals.

As most of us will be newly trained, expect the process to be a little rough around the edges. wink

Last edited by pgp; 03/11/10 11:03 AM.

Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: News for the F16 class [Re: Wouter] #205351
03/11/10 11:58 AM
03/11/10 11:58 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
old hand
Stewart  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
is it incomplete?>

If the weight is over minimum then I believe their only needs a box saying above min weight. just a tick..
nothing more..

besides at every major event one should expect to be weighed. why .. easy to take out lead weights or put on lighter blocks etc..

Last edited by Stewart; 03/11/10 12:01 PM.
Re: News for the F16 class [Re: Stewart] #205367
03/11/10 02:54 PM
03/11/10 02:54 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
scooby_simon  Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
Wouter.

How many times do you have to be told the same thing?

The weight is NOT recored as this means that for the certificate to be valid; the boat MUST weigh what it says on the cert. If the weight changes then the certificate is no longer valid.


As for incurring 700 euro for the website over the 7 years or so you hald the URL; you were a mug to spend so much. The URL SHOULD have cost you about 5EUR per annum to hold; who was the ISP that charged you 95EUR per annum to host the site?


Last edited by scooby_simon; 03/11/10 02:56 PM.

F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: News for the F16 class [Re: scooby_simon] #205370
03/11/10 04:00 PM
03/11/10 04:00 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
old hand
macca  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
The F18 class in Europe records the total weight on the cert.

if your boat is underweight on the cert then you must carry correctors up to this weight unless there is a weigh in at the event, in that case the weights for that event are used and correctors applied accordingly.

Same goes for the Tornado class....

But I am sure the F16 class knows better smile



________________________
http://aus300.blogspot.com
Re: News for the F16 class [Re: macca] #205387
03/11/10 08:39 PM
03/11/10 08:39 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
old hand
Stewart  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
macca actually the F16 class does know better..

There are reasons and Im sure you will eventually work them out...


Last edited by Stewart; 03/11/10 08:41 PM.
Re: News for the F16 class [Re: Stewart] #205404
03/12/10 01:05 AM
03/12/10 01:05 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
old hand
macca  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
So, by that reasoning, I can have an F16 that weighs 75kg and then race in all the events throughout the year without carrying weight unless there is a weigh in at the event??



________________________
http://aus300.blogspot.com
Re: News for the F16 class [Re: macca] #205407
03/12/10 03:06 AM
03/12/10 03:06 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 954
Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K
Mark P Offline
old hand
Mark P  Offline
old hand

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 954
Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K
And by that same reasoning so could every other racing dinghy from Opi to Tornado.
However,the majority of people I know and race against are fully aware of the basic principle of sportsmanship and the rules and abide by the 2nd Rule of Racing.


MP*MULTIHULLS
Re: News for the F16 class [Re: Mark P] #205410
03/12/10 03:46 AM
03/12/10 03:46 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
old hand
macca  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
Incorrect, The F18 and Tornado have the total boat weight and correctors marked on the measurement certificate. If your boat is under the min weight then you must carry the corrector weights shown on your measurement certificate. Its easy to check if someone is carrying 3kg (as per a cert) of lead at an event rather than measuring an entire boat...

But like I said, I am sure the F16 class knows better smile



________________________
http://aus300.blogspot.com
Re: News for the F16 class [Re: macca] #205411
03/12/10 03:50 AM
03/12/10 03:50 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,382
Essex, UK
Jalani Offline
veteran
Jalani  Offline
veteran

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,382
Essex, UK
Macca,
Where did we say that corrector weights aren't shown on the cert???
It is perfectly reasonable to state that a boat is over minimum weight and still list the corrector weights required to be in class.
It should then be obvious that if a boat has correctors listed on its certificate that it should always race with those weights in place unless the boat is reweighed and the certificate amended as necessary.
I can recall several of my Tornados having the corrector weight amended in this way over time.


John Alani
___________
Stealth F16s GBR527 and GBR538
Re: News for the F16 class [Re: macca] #205418
03/12/10 05:28 AM
03/12/10 05:28 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
old hand
Stewart  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
guess I need to teach you to read all the thread.. cool

" F18 measurers in the US leave the all-up weight box blank. All-up weight is checked at major events for compliance, but because variability in lines, blocks, tillers, ect., can be expected throughout the season, our measurers are not required to fill the box in - just check for compliance.

From Your Parent
_________________________
John Williams
F18 USA 70"

Maybe you could argue John Williams doesn't know much about the F18 or cat sailing.. This will be an interesting discussion... *reaching for the popcorn*...

then maybe the F16 actually knows what its doing... grin

Re: News for the F16 class [Re: Stewart] #205420
03/12/10 06:10 AM
03/12/10 06:10 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
old hand
macca  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
Actually, John said that they don't do it in the USA and we all know how many things they do wrong over there smile

The EU fleet of F18 is a well run professional scene, much like the Tornado was when it was Olympic. These two classes use the approach I described and both are ISAF recognised classes...

Why would you have a section on a measurement cert for a total boat weight and then leave it blank??? Might as well leave other details blank too, like length, sail area and beam??


________________________
http://aus300.blogspot.com
Re: News for the F16 class [Re: macca] #205421
03/12/10 06:20 AM
03/12/10 06:20 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 69
Live in Germany, House in UK, ...
DanTnz Offline
journeyman
DanTnz  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 69
Live in Germany, House in UK, ...
Looks like winter has been too long for you guys

I really hope it gets warmer soon so we can see some posts about sailing and racing.........

Re: News for the F16 class [Re: DanTnz] #205422
03/12/10 06:51 AM
03/12/10 06:51 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,584
+31NL
Tony_F18 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Tony_F18  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,584
+31NL
I never thought I would say this but I actually agree with Macca here. sick wink

Without weighing the boat I don't see how you can be F18 compliant.
The rules require that the measurer put a sticker on the hull stating the all-up weight, which has to be the same number as stated on the certificate.
It is also a lot less work to weigh it once instead of at every mayor event.

Measurement Rules: http://www.f18-international.org/rmeasurem.htm

Re: News for the F16 class [Re: Tony_F18] #205451
03/12/10 12:36 PM
03/12/10 12:36 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
Carpal Tunnel
John Williams  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
****. At all of the F18 championships and many of the regional events, boats are weighed and sails are checked. Guess how many boats failed a measurement check in the last six years. US F18 racing has been growing steadily and competition is fantastic, and for six years we've managed certification differently than the EU. So if the F16 Class has decided that they are going to manage things in a different manner than the EU F18s have done, it is petty and inaccurate to chime in that it can't work for them.

Forest. Trees.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: News for the F16 class [Re: John Williams] #205476
03/12/10 06:25 PM
03/12/10 06:25 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
old hand
macca  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
John, As most Capricorn's come under the F18 class min weight they are generally required to carry correctors. Without having the boat weight and correctors marked on the cert its not possible to regulate the compliance unless you do a complete weigh in of all boats.

Why make it harder than you have to? Simply do an initial full measure of the boat including weight, note that weight and required correctors on the cert and then unless the boat is measured again or weighed at an event it needs to carry the correctors shown on the cert. Then there is no cause for any questions over the compliance of the boats weight.

All this discussion isn't so relevant for the F16 though: they are all over the min weight anyway smile


________________________
http://aus300.blogspot.com
Re: News for the F16 class [Re: macca] #205477
03/12/10 07:10 PM
03/12/10 07:10 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Timbo  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
But if we had listened to you Macca, we would have raised the min wt. and have to carry correctors and have stickers too....great ideas you have. Thanks for your valuable input.


Blade F16
#777
Page 2 of 4 1 2 3 4

Moderated by  Damon Linkous, phill, Rolf_Nilsen 

Search

Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 156 guests, and 83 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Darryl, zorro, CraigJ, PaulEddo2, AUS180
8150 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics22,404
Posts267,055
Members8,150
Most Online2,167
Dec 19th, 2022
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1