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Re: safe sailing [Re: Isotope235] #208394
04/14/10 02:28 PM
04/14/10 02:28 PM
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Orlando, FL
tback Offline
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Eric,

thank you for a concise and easy to follow interpretation of the rules.

Your summary was/is very helpful!


USA 777
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: safe sailing [Re: brucat] #208395
04/14/10 02:34 PM
04/14/10 02:34 PM
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Getting back to the original topic,
Originally Posted by brucat
One of the main reasons that the weather (or offset) mark is a dangerous place with spinnaker boats is that the crews are so busy hoisting the kite and adjusting things, they may be more likely to take their eyes off the road.
A boat is expected to maintain a lookout at all times, even when setting a spinnaker. Lapses of attention can be hazardous anywhere on the course.

Quote
While this won't fix all the problems, one major help here is to have a separate (longer) weather mark (and offset) for the spinnaker boats. Won't help much in a 50-boat spinnaker fleet, but will help a ton in mixed fleets.
I don't quite follow that logic, at least for catamarans. Spinnaker cats generally sail much deeper than sloop and uni-rigs. If different types of catamarans rounded the same mark, the spinnaker boats would tend to sail below the non-spins. After that, things are not really different than anywhere on the downwind leg. What am I missing?

Quote
There are other issues that can happen elsewhere on the course that cannot be easily addressed with rule changes. The primary one is spinnaker boats on the edge of control when it's blowing like stink. They have to bear off (a lot sometimes), which can be unexpected for boats going upwind.
This is why boats sailing downwind in heavy air jealously guard their escape lane to leeward. If another boat occupies that lane, the windward boat will often gybe away. This holds true for non-spin boats as well - and even monohulls that sail hot angles downwind. I don't think any rule changes are needed.

Quote
... the worst thing on a course (for all of us) is any boat that is sailing around, knowing that they can't see.
Absolutely! Sailing blind is an invitation to disaster. Keep a good lookout; know what boats are nearby; and make a plan to keep clear before the boats actually meet.

Regards,
Eric

Re: safe sailing [Re: Isotope235] #208396
04/14/10 02:35 PM
04/14/10 02:35 PM

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andrewscott
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Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by Undecided
If you are fouled and the offending party does not do their turns then you are obligated to file a protest IMO.

Yes and no. There is no rule that requires a boat to protest. However, the preamble to the rules says:
Quote
Competitors in the sport of sailing are governed by a body of rules that they are expected to follow and enforce.

Although you are not compelled to protest, you are expected to.


Originally Posted by tback
How does one really know if the offender did their turns? You're not required to do them immediately .... only before you complete the race. Right?

Wrong. As mbounds already pointed out, (in fleet racing) the penalty turn(s) must be taken as soon as possible - not when convenient.

Originally Posted by PTP
...we did our turns before finishing. ... I am not even sure we did the turn correctly ... coming to the leeward mark on port. gybed to starboard, headed up, tacked and the went to the mark on starboard

It sounds like:
1) you didn't do your turn(s) "as soon as possible", which is incorrect
2) you did one turn - not two. This is not correct according to the rules, unless the Sailing Instructions changed the penalty (which they often do).
3) the turn you describe DOES satisfy the requirement of "one tack and one gybe in the same direction". A penalty turn does not have to be a complete 360 degrees.

Originally Posted by Undecided
Doing them ASAP == before the finish so I've got all bases covered.

No. ASAP means immediately after the incident, not anytime before the finish. See the quote below:

Originally Posted by mbounds

Quote
44.2 One-Turn and Two-Turns Penalties
After getting well clear of other boats as soon after the incident as possible, a boat takes a One-Turn or Two-Turns penalty by promptly making the required number of turns in the same direction, each turn including one tack and one gybe. When a boat takes the penalty at or near the finishing line, she shall sail completely to the course side of
the line before finishing.


In fleet racing, the above language governs. ASAP means ASAP, not when it is convenient to do so.


Originally Posted by Undecided
yeah I always thought that the words "as soon as possible" were a poor choice in this rule.

Well, "as soon as possible" is less problematic than the term "promptly" (which occurs later in the rule). In either case, substitute the phrase "without delay" to better interpret rule 44.2.

Originally Posted by andrewscott
what dictates if its a 1 turn or 2 turn penalty?
whats the penalty for secretly attaching someones catamaran to a cinder-block?

The penalty for breaking a rule of Part 2 ("When Boats Meet") when racing is two turns - unless the SI's specify differently. The penalty for breaking rule 31 ("Touching A Mark") is one turn. Attaching a cinder-block to someone else's boat would constitute a breach of rule 2 ("Fair Sailing"), and the penalty would be DNE (disqualification non-excludable). If the Protest Committee felt it constituted a "gross breach of sportsmanship", then you might wind up facing greater penalties.

I hope that helps,
Eric
US Sailing Certified Judge
Member, Area D Appeals Committee
\
Great data, thanks Eric.
of course my "cinder-block" was a joke, but it certainly would be a "gross breach of sportsmanship" (IMHO)

Re: safe sailing [Re: brucat] #208401
04/14/10 02:43 PM
04/14/10 02:43 PM

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andrewscott
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andrewscott
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Originally Posted by brucat
To all the "confused" people:

I've been as guilty of this as anyone, but I've been trying to turn a new leaf. Before guessing what the RRS says and typing an opinion here, open the book and read it. When posting here, be sure to include the rule number, it will help everyone. Hint: the RRS is also available (free) online on several sites (USSA, ISAF).

At least in my case, when I don't do this, I have often found myself "misremembering" the RRS, which can lead to some embarrasing statements. Any time you open the rule book, it either teaches you something or reinforces something, both of which will help you tremendously on the water when you have no time to be looking things up.

Paraphrasing, but basically, the default rule of 44.1 is, for any violations of Part 2, two turns. Hit a mark, one turn (yes, there are exceptions, look them up).

PTP is right, SIs can (and often do) change the requirements given in RRS 44.1 and 44.2. Most often for cat regattas, we use one-turn for everything.

Here's the most creative change that I've seen (this was for a big-boat regatta):

"RRS 44.1 and 44.2 are changed so that, except for infringements of Part 2 that occur within the zone of a rounding mark or finishing mark only one turn, including one tack and one gybe, is required."

Hope this helps.

Mike


Thanks, - here is a link
http://www.sailing.org/20348.php

Re: safe sailing [Re: ] #208403
04/14/10 02:45 PM
04/14/10 02:45 PM
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pgp Offline OP
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Fwiw, my intentions in starting this thread was to prevent someone getting a punctured lung from a spin pole.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: safe sailing [Re: ] #208404
04/14/10 02:47 PM
04/14/10 02:47 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
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Originally Posted by Undecided
yeah I always thought that the words "as soon as possible" were a poor choice in this rule.

My manager seriously flies off the handle when anyone uses that term since is sooo subjective.


I had a coach who gave us some idea.....

If you have not started to take action to take your pen in the time it takes you to look at the mainsail; look upwind and down, tell the crew and then start; you are in danger of not being quick enough. (this was for Ollies / worlds sailing).

It essentially menas you have time to look for a place to do the turn adn then DO IT NOW. More than 10 seconds to start doing something and you MIGHT get a DSQ.


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: safe sailing [Re: Isotope235] #208406
04/14/10 02:52 PM
04/14/10 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by brucat
While this won't fix all the problems, one major help here is to have a separate (longer) weather mark (and offset) for the spinnaker boats. Won't help much in a 50-boat spinnaker fleet, but will help a ton in mixed fleets.

I don't quite follow that logic, at least for catamarans. Spinnaker cats generally sail much deeper than sloop and uni-rigs. If different types of catamarans rounded the same mark, the spinnaker boats would tend to sail below the non-spins. After that, things are not really different than anywhere on the downwind leg. What am I missing?


Well, the primary reason for the longer mark is to fix timing issues (target times for the various speed boats in a mixed-class event), so that the slower boats don't have to do a one-lap race (exaggerating, but you get the idea). But, it has the added advantage of reducing the number of boats rounding the weather mark with spinnaker boats. As you and I pointed out, this can't fix all the problems, but in my experience, it helps a lot.

Mike

Re: safe sailing [Re: ThunderMuffin] #208408
04/14/10 02:56 PM
04/14/10 02:56 PM
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Isotope235 Offline
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Originally Posted by Undecided
Isotope:
Quote
Originally Posted By: Undecided
Doing them ASAP == before the finish so I've got all bases covered.

No. ASAP means immediately after the incident, not anytime before the finish. See the quote below:


Answer me this.

If I do my turned "As soon as possible" ... how is that not in the set of timepoints in the superset of "before the finish".

I can't think of any scenario in which doing a turn as soon as you are able to is not before you finish unless you foul someone AT the finish line.

You misunderstood what I wrote.

Yes, quite possibly I misunderstood your statement. Perhaps it is the programmer in me. I read "==" as the identity operator. So, while doing a turn before the finish is a necessary condition for exoneration, it is not a sufficient condition. In other words the timepoints encompassed by, "as soon as possible" is a subset of "before finishing", but the two are not identity sets. Therefore "doing them ASAP" is not the same as "before the finish".

If you meant "I did the penalty ASAP", then you are ok. If you meant "I did the penalty before the finish", then you are not. I read your statement as the second.

Technically, all penalties taken under Rule 44.2 must occur before finishing. If you break a rule of Part 2, or rule 28.1, or rule 31 after finishing while still racing, you may take a penalty or correct the error - after which you must "finish" again.

In fleet racing, it doesn't make sense to talk about taking a penalty "before the finish". RRS 44.2 requires that the turn(s) take place "as soon after the incident as possible".

Regards,
Eric

Re: safe sailing [Re: brucat] #208409
04/14/10 02:58 PM
04/14/10 02:58 PM
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Pete, as I mentioned in a prior post, I emphasize with you and agree that there are sometimes some crazy situations, but as others have pointed out, rules can't prevent everything, and the rules in place limit how we can change them.

Do you have a suggestion for a better rule, and can you work it through the system for a change? While it may seem onerous, the system in place is great, because it requires lots of people to review and think about suggested changes, which often brings out (and hopefully prevents) unintended consequences.


Mike

Re: safe sailing [Re: pgp] #208411
04/14/10 03:06 PM
04/14/10 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by pgp
Fwiw, my intentions in starting this thread was to prevent someone getting a punctured lung from a spin pole.



I think the "problem" with the "Leeward boat has right of way" rule here is, the boat coming upwind (the leeward boat, or ROW) has the best view of what's going on, as he's looking upwind in the first place and he's not got a big spinnaker blocking his view.

The 'burdened boat' is coming downwind with the spin up, blocking at least part of his downwind view, and the skipper is most likely looking upwind for a puff to chase, not always looking downwind for traffic.

If the ROW boat was at one time well clear, but then tacks, and the burdened boat never see's him tack, and now the ROW is in the spinnaker blind spot, well, it can get very interesting, very quickly.

I know when I'm the ROW boat, going upwind, I never assume the spin guy coming down sees me, and I'll gladly tack to get out of his way...more so if it's blowing and he's hauling butt. I don't want to end up "Dead Right".

I think it goes to the "avoid a collision at all costs" rule.


Blade F16
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Re: safe sailing [Re: brucat] #208412
04/14/10 03:10 PM
04/14/10 03:10 PM
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Isotope235 Offline
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Originally Posted by brucat
...Do you have a suggestion for a better rule...?

Nice post! It asks a key question and gets us back on the original topic. I'm curious to see what proposals come out of it. Personally, I am skeptical how a rule change can help the problem of not keeping a good lookout, but I'm willing to be proven wrong.

Regards,
Eric

Re: safe sailing [Re: Isotope235] #208413
04/14/10 03:13 PM
04/14/10 03:13 PM
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Simply change it to say, when two boats meet and one is coming downwind under spinnaker, and the other is going upwind with only a mainsail and/or jib, the spinnker flying boat has the right of way.

Or use the bumper sticker version:

"Tack now, or risk certain death"


Blade F16
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Re: safe sailing [Re: Timbo] #208414
04/14/10 03:44 PM
04/14/10 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Timbo
I think the "problem" with the "Leeward boat has right of way" rule here is, the boat coming upwind (the leeward boat, or ROW) has the best view of what's going on, as he's looking upwind in the first place and he's not got a big spinnaker blocking his view.

I don't really see this as a spinnaker issue, or even a catamaran issue, since the same problems exist with jibs and on monohulls. The problem seems to be the speeds involved - it's possible to get in trouble fast. At higher speeds, you need to look and plan farther ahead.

Quote
The 'burdened boat' is coming downwind with the spin up, blocking at least part of his downwind view, and the skipper is most likely looking upwind for a puff to chase, not always looking downwind for traffic.

A boat must keep a good lookout, spinnaker or no. If the skipper ignores downwind traffic to watch upwind puffs, then he's likely to get into trouble no matter what the rules say.

Quote
If the ROW boat was at one time well clear, but then tacks, and the burdened boat never see's him tack, and now the ROW is in the spinnaker blind spot, well, it can get very interesting, very quickly.

If a windward (let's assume port tack) boat sees a leeward port tack boat coming upwind disappear behind his spinnaker, he needs to watch for it to appear again. If it doesn't, he's got to actively look to see where it went. If one has to periodically round down and/or slack the chute to keep an eye on leeward boats, then that's what one must do.

Quote
I know when I'm the ROW boat, going upwind, I never assume the spin guy coming down sees me, and I'll gladly tack to get out of his way...more so if it's blowing and he's hauling butt. I don't want to end up "Dead Right".

That's wise. At the point where you have reasonable apprehension of contact if you don't take avoiding action - take it (see ISAF Case 50). Then protest. Rule 14 (and common sense) require you to attempt to avoid contact.

Quote
I think it goes to the "avoid a collision at all costs" rule.

Well, Rule 14 doesn't say "at all costs". It says "A boat shall avoid contact with another boat if reasonably possible". Watch out for other boats, plan ahead, and avoid contact reasonably.

Regards,
Eric

Re: safe sailing [Re: Isotope235] #208420
04/14/10 04:03 PM
04/14/10 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by brucat
...Do you have a suggestion for a better rule...?

Nice post! It asks a key question and gets us back on the original topic. I'm curious to see what proposals come out of it. Personally, I am skeptical how a rule change can help the problem of not keeping a good lookout, but I'm willing to be proven wrong.

Regards,
Eric


I believe safety should win out. It is not physically possible to keep a good lookout on a spin boat in all cases as there is a blind spot. A boat going to weather has much better visibility; hence it should carry most of the burden.

Spinnaker has the right of way should be the rule, imo.

Further, in the interest of safety, spin and non-spin boats should be on different courses whenever possible.




Pete Pollard
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Re: safe sailing [Re: Timbo] #208421
04/14/10 04:04 PM
04/14/10 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Timbo
Simply change it to say, when two boats meet and one is coming downwind under spinnaker, and the other is going upwind with only a mainsail and/or jib, the spinnker flying boat has the right of way.

What if the boats are on opposite tacks? What if the boat sailing downwind is flying a genoa or a gennaker? What if the boat flying a spinnaker is sailing on a reach instead of downwind? What if the boat not flying a spinnaker is sailing on a reach instead of upwind? What covers the case of a boat sailing downwind on a converging course but is obscured by the spinnaker?

Picture this scenerio: Three boats A, B, and C. A is sailing upwind under main and jib. B and C are sailing downwind on the same tack towards A. B is to leeward of C and not flying a spinnaker. C is to windard and is flying a spinnaker. Under this suggested rule, A has right-of-way over B. B has right-of-way over C. C has right-of-way over A. When they converge, who has to give room to whom?

I think a boat sailing upwind would likely have difficulty understanding the rules if right-of-way changed depending on the sails the other boat was using.

I wouldn't characterize this change as "simple".

Regards,
Eric

Re: safe sailing [Re: pgp] #208423
04/14/10 04:26 PM
04/14/10 04:26 PM
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Isotope235 Offline
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Originally Posted by pgp
I believe safety should win out.

I agree. Rule 1 "Safety" and Rule 14 "Avoiding Contact" are there for that purpose.

Quote
It is not physically possible to keep a good lookout on a spin boat in all cases as there is a blind spot.

I disagree. No matter what shape or how opaque your sails are, you are still required to keep a good lookout. Just as when driving a car, if you have a blind spot, you need to look around it frequently enough to keep track of traffic. If you can't watch where you're going, you should sail (or drive) something else.

Quote
A boat going to weather has much better visibility; hence it should carry most of the burden.

I disagree. This rationale degenerates into worst lookout gets right-of-way. I don't think that's the right spirit to sail under. If you sail a boat with a bigger blind spot, you should accept the greater effort to look around it.

Quote
Spinnaker has the right of way should be the rule, imo.

Can you suggest a wording for that rule? I have trouble seeing how it would work.

Quote
Further, in the interest of safety, spin and non-spin boats should be on different courses whenever possible.

I don't understand. How is an encounter between a spin boat going downwind meeting a non-spin boat going upwind any different than a spin boat going downwind meeting a spin boat going upwind?

Regards,
Eric

Re: safe sailing [Re: Isotope235] #208424
04/14/10 04:32 PM
04/14/10 04:32 PM
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Well then, to keep it "Simple", change it to 'any spinnaker boat has right of way', period. Then in your scenario, C has right of way over both A and B, and A had just better get out of the way and B can tell A he's got to have room to keep clear of C.

I don't know the history of when and why the "Leeward boat has right of way" rule was written, but I'm guessing whom ever wrote it never envisioned a fleet of spinnaker cats coming downwind at nearly 20 knots...while one boat is going upwind yelling he's got "rights", as if the spin boats can hear him anyway, or can do anything about it, when the puff is on.


Blade F16
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Re: safe sailing [Re: Isotope235] #208426
04/14/10 04:46 PM
04/14/10 04:46 PM
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Pete,

So you wish to advocate that just because you have a spinnacker on the boat that gives you the right to sail BLINDLY downwind .... OUT OF CONTROL .... ignoring your responsibility to maintain a proper lookout and to sail with-in control on the race course.

Can I assume that you also advocate the whomever has the fastest, nastiest sportscar does not have to obey the traffic laws while on the highway such as "Traffic Lights", "Stop" signs etc etc

What gives you the right to run over my niece and I on my TheMightyHobie18 when we are on the same race course and have a windward/leeward crossing w/ me being the leeward vessel????

LEARN the (current)RULES .... and sail safely as not to place ANYONE IN DANGER ... NO ONE on your vessel or others!!!!

Thad: The rule about "penalty turns" was at one time that you could wait until just before finishing to do the penalty turns .... BUT that was changed YEARS ago (10-+15yrs????) ... then it was that the penalty turns had to be done BEFORE the next mark rounding (same leg as the foul occured on) .... NOW it's at the first "SAFE" apportunity immediately after the foul (if someone on your vessel is hurt or your vessel is needs repair, you may take corrective actions first ... but before contiueing racing you must complete your penalty)

Eric: I always enjoy your posts .... hopefully someday my knowledge will come close to yours

Harry

PS: Everytime I hear of a "Racing Rules Seminar" being conducted I try to attend ... usually one or more per year!!!! I SUGGEST that everyone else should consider doing the same ... if you wish to play SAFELY in this game!!!!!

Re: safe sailing [Re: HMurphey] #208428
04/14/10 04:55 PM
04/14/10 04:55 PM
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Harry:

I think you'll find that I was the one who said that you were supposed to do your circles as soon as possible.

Dear lord.

Re: safe sailing [Re: ThunderMuffin] #208431
04/14/10 05:17 PM
04/14/10 05:17 PM
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Thad,

I was just trying to prove that there was a time when you were correct about waiting to do "penalty turns" just before the finish of a race .... of course I was young and frisky then and had no grey hairs in my beard or on my head back then !!!!!

You were maybe sailing a OPTI at Tred Avon YC then too .....

I have trouble (sometimes) keeping the rule changes straight over the years .... MAST ABEAM .... Hahaha

Harry

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