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Loos & Co. tension guides Inter20 #209026
04/21/10 03:14 AM
04/21/10 03:14 AM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 44
The Netherlands
mbalhuizen Offline OP
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mbalhuizen  Offline OP
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The Netherlands
I am looking for guidelines in the Loose & Co. measured tension setting on my diamond stays on Inter20 alu mast. I have now set to 35 (= average wind settings?) that I got from the tuning guide.

More wind, more tension, and if so how much more would I use?
Is there some sort of reference table around?

Additional setting: (We weight 160 kg (= 353lbs?), I have spreader set to approx 4.5 cm). Still figuring mast rake, bridle - half way rudder?


Any help, experience, links to info etc. is appreciated

Tx all!



Last edited by mbalhuizen; 04/21/10 03:41 AM.

Martijn Balhuizen
I20-The Netherlands
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Loos & Co. tension guides Inter20 [Re: mbalhuizen] #209035
04/21/10 08:08 AM
04/21/10 08:08 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
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Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
I think your charting fairly new territory here with the aluminum rig. Please keep us updated on your findings.
Wish I could help.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Loos & Co. tension guides Inter20 [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #209069
04/21/10 01:28 PM
04/21/10 01:28 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
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ThunderMuffin Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Portland, Maine
We have some well documented numbers for the Carbon stick. But the alum one is, like Tawd says - uncharted territory for us all.

Re: Loos & Co. tension guides Inter20 [Re: ThunderMuffin] #209071
04/21/10 01:34 PM
04/21/10 01:34 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,121
Eastern NC, USA
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tshan Offline
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Eastern NC, USA
Didn't the guys in Singapore document some wingmast settings on a blog? Seems like it had posts abt cats, motorcycles and all kinds of stuff..... the author used to be fairly active here.... am I making this $%#@ up?


Tom
Re: Loos & Co. tension guides Inter20 [Re: tshan] #209078
04/21/10 02:54 PM
04/21/10 02:54 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
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ThunderMuffin Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Scott McCook. I'll see if I can dig up his blog address.

Re: Loos & Co. tension guides Inter20 [Re: ThunderMuffin] #209080
04/21/10 03:01 PM
04/21/10 03:01 PM
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Portland, Maine
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ThunderMuffin Offline
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Here's his blog but I don't know if there's any tuning info present on it.

https://boatsbikesboards.wordpress.com/

Re: Loos & Co. tension guides Inter20 [Re: tshan] #209082
04/21/10 03:06 PM
04/21/10 03:06 PM

M
MarkMT
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Re: Loos & Co. tension guides Inter20 [Re: ] #209091
04/21/10 04:32 PM
04/21/10 04:32 PM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline
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I THINK, the best starting point is going to be to hoist the main and get the mast curve to fit the luff of the main through a combination of diamond wire tension and spreader rake. Are you running a double spreader rig with single or double diamond wires?

Most of the N20 tuning guides are for the carbon mast; we don't go much above 42 on the Loos gauge on the carbon mast. I'm not saying the aluminum will bust when you go higher than this, but for right now (until someone who's done it chimes in), I would stay below this value.


Scorpion F18
Re: Loos & Co. tension guides Inter20 [Re: ] #209092
04/21/10 04:34 PM
04/21/10 04:34 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,121
Eastern NC, USA
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tshan Offline
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Ahh ... I stand corrected. Apologize or the rabbit trail.

TVS gets mentioned here


Tom
Re: Loos & Co. tension guides Inter20 [Re: samc99us] #209106
04/21/10 07:10 PM
04/21/10 07:10 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
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South Carolina
I sure wish you guys would boil down your tension readings to lbs using the table on the gauge. It would make the "brand / type" of gauge a non-issue (at least within the accuracy of the gauge).


Jake Kohl
Re: Loos & Co. tension guides Inter20 [Re: Jake] #209109
04/21/10 08:05 PM
04/21/10 08:05 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Originally Posted by Jake
I sure wish you guys would boil down your tension readings to lbs using the table on the gauge. It would make the "brand / type" of gauge a non-issue (at least within the accuracy of the gauge).

Amen. There's at least 3 or 4 different gauges. Even ones of the same model vary.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Loos & Co. tension guides Inter20 [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #209112
04/21/10 08:17 PM
04/21/10 08:17 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,304
Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
TeamChums Offline
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TeamChums  Offline
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Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
You shouldn't need to go as high with the alluminum mast since it will bend somewhat easier than the carbon, depending on your spreader rake.


Lee

Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
Re: Loos & Co. tension guides Inter20 [Re: TeamChums] #209116
04/21/10 08:28 PM
04/21/10 08:28 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,490
On the Water
P.M. Offline
Pooh-Bah
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On the Water
You could talk to Mark Smith, since he has spent some time tuning the rig, and could probably get you in the ball park . . .


Philip
USA #1006
Re: Loos & Co. tension guides Inter20 [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #209129
04/21/10 10:12 PM
04/21/10 10:12 PM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline
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Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Jake
I sure wish you guys would boil down your tension readings to lbs using the table on the gauge. It would make the "brand / type" of gauge a non-issue (at least within the accuracy of the gauge).

Amen. There's at least 3 or 4 different gauges. Even ones of the same model vary.


I agree and I apologize for using the spring scale numbers instead of the conversion to lbs...my scale happens to be 2 hours away so this makes things a little difficult. Also, arguably a bigger problem is the variance between one scale and another OF THE SAME TYPE. This problem is so bad the Olympic sailors use 3 Loos Gauges and average them; then they all wised up and bought a more accurate and precise digital scale, at the tune of $300+.

Best bet is to talk to someone whose done it before, which is no one in this thread to MY KNOWLEDGE. Another good starting point is an infusion sailor since they use the same mast section AFAIK.

Along these notes, we seriously need a good tuning guide for the N20. Of the three I've seen, only the factory one is concise but it is very conservative and all of them are several years old. Maybe nothings really changed, but I'm sure there are better methods to obtaining a fast boat.

Last edited by samc99us; 04/21/10 10:16 PM.

Scorpion F18
Re: Loos & Co. tension guides Inter20 [Re: samc99us] #209175
04/22/10 10:01 AM
04/22/10 10:01 AM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 44
The Netherlands
mbalhuizen Offline OP
newbie
mbalhuizen  Offline OP
newbie

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 44
The Netherlands
@all: tx for reactions and info.

fwiw:

I have been sailing in Aruba (Carribean) we had 32knots wind, and used 41 on scale Loose & Co. (the expensive one with the two weels - sorry no conversion lbs at the moment. That number was advised by Sander Pols who we sailed with. Sanders is a fine person (he sails really well, and is very friendly). He is involved with Nacra Europe as one of the owners. As first timers on this Heineken regatta we were offered lots of help and advice.

(yes, that 32 knots was way to much for us, broke spipole twice, lots of other damage to ourselfe and gear ;-) and had the wildest ride of our lives. Never actually raised the spi. At least we had off-shore wind, or we would not have lived to tell ;-)) It was a learning experience, to put it mildly.

I guess I would start at 35 at 20knots, and work upwards in increments of 2, hoping not to reach 41 again.

>>I THINK, the best starting point is going to be to hoist the main and get the mast curve to fit the luff of the main through a combination of diamond wire tension and spreader rake. Are you running a double spreader rig with single or double diamond wires?

Yes, that is a good idea, will try that.
We are running a single spreader with single wires, like described in the Singapore threads offered by MikeMT (tx for those).

Tx for info on blogs, will start reading.

Last edited by mbalhuizen; 04/22/10 10:01 AM.

Martijn Balhuizen
I20-The Netherlands
Re: Loos & Co. tension guides Inter20 [Re: mbalhuizen] #209178
04/22/10 10:10 AM
04/22/10 10:10 AM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 756
Newport, RI
wildtsail Offline
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wildtsail  Offline
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Posts: 756
Newport, RI
Mbalhizen... Are you talking about an infusion mast?
I'll tell you our range on our infusion is pretty much 37-42 and we've gone a bit higher when it really starts honking.
We usually sail around 39-40
Most of the other infusion sailors I know have a similar range and average.
I've never gone below 37 and don't know if I would.
With the new mast base it is essential to carry a wrench on the water so you can adjust per conditions on the water.

Re: Loos & Co. tension guides Inter20 [Re: wildtsail] #209184
04/22/10 10:42 AM
04/22/10 10:42 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 606
League City, TX
flumpmaster Offline
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flumpmaster  Offline
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Posts: 606
League City, TX
Originally Posted by wildtsail
Mbalhizen... Are you talking about an infusion mast?
With the new mast base it is essential to carry a wrench on the water so you can adjust per conditions on the water.


In case anyone is wondering how you do this, you set up the boat on shore (including correct stay tension for conditions and adjust the mast to various loos gauge settings, counting the quater turns on the nut as you go. Then when you are out on the water you keep a running count up and down on the nut as you adjust it between races to stay within the upper and lower limits. Like card counting - but easier...

Chris.


Dave Ingram is my president. tcdyc rules
Re: Loos & Co. tension guides Inter20 [Re: flumpmaster] #209185
04/22/10 10:53 AM
04/22/10 10:53 AM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 976
France
pepin Offline
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pepin  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 976
France
Hu? What about F18 class rule C.9.6:

Quote

STANDING RIGGING
(a) It is NOT permitted to adjust: mast rake, tension of standing rigging, angle or length of spreaders or diamond wire tension.


Last edited by pepin; 04/22/10 10:58 AM. Reason: I got it, the important point is the "between races" bit. Ignore this message :)
Re: Loos & Co. tension guides Inter20 [Re: pepin] #209187
04/22/10 11:07 AM
04/22/10 11:07 AM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 756
Newport, RI
wildtsail Offline
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wildtsail  Offline
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Posts: 756
Newport, RI
Chris... making a scale with a reference point on the diamond wire is a bit easier. I use both where the end of the swage fitting comes out of the mast and a piece of tape around the diamond wire. I have small scales on each. I have 2 because above 40.5 the swage fitting goes into the mast and that becomes useless.
Pepin... that means while racing, you do this between races.

Re: Loos & Co. tension guides Inter20 [Re: pepin] #209188
04/22/10 11:18 AM
04/22/10 11:18 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
Yes Pepin technically you are correct, but the new rules weren't released to us until two days ago (Tuesday). In Chris's defense the old rule had the 'while racing' verbiage.

And while we are on the subject and before you drop some coin on the new Velocitek devices you probably want to look at rule C.5.1.b.3

2010 F18 Rules


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
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