| |  ratings #209821
04/29/10 12:01 PM 04/29/10 12:01 PM |
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| I read on the main board some time back that there is only one winner and that is first place; second place is just the first looser.
I disagree. Since I read that post, I've been trying to think of a way to make racing more interesting for those of us who do not finish first, or win any trophy at all. Of the ideas I've considered, I like the idea of rating the sailor best.
What I have in mind is not a handicapping system to win a trophy but a grading system to measure improvement and to quantify that improvement.
Anyone else interested in such a system?
Last edited by pgp; 04/29/10 12:02 PM.
Pete Pollard
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'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.
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[Re: pgp]
#209825
04/29/10 12:28 PM 04/29/10 12:28 PM |
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MERRITTISLAND, FL Matt M
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MERRITTISLAND, FL | I read on the main board some time back that there is only one winner and that is first place; second place is just the first looser.
I disagree. Since I read that post, I've been trying to think of a way to make racing more interesting for those of us who do not finish first, or win any trophy at all. Of the ideas I've considered, I like the idea of rating the sailor best.
What I have in mind is not a handicapping system to win a trophy but a grading system to measure improvement and to quantify that improvement.
Anyone else interested in such a system? Pete, What were you thinking? We used to have a system in our local fleet where time differences were kept between all the boats and averaged to give a handicap rating. We then had reverse starts based on this at local events. I suppose you could combine results comparing various fleets around the country by the relative results of the few who travel between different fleets, kind of like the college sports rankings. All this would take is someone taking and compiling times at every race. M | | | Re: ratings
[Re: Matt M]
#209842
04/29/10 02:41 PM 04/29/10 02:41 PM |
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| I wasn't thinking anything remotely like that, more like time trials, one boat on the course at a time.
Pete Pollard
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'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.
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[Re: pgp]
#209847
04/29/10 03:39 PM 04/29/10 03:39 PM |
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Sebring, Florida. Timbo
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Sebring, Florida. | Unless you can keep the wind strength constant, and from the same direction for the duration of this time trial event, how would it be a 'fair' rating? And what purpose would your rating have once obtained?
I understand Matt's example and I've always liked the way they start the Mug Race, slow boats first, faster boats start last and have to pass everyone to win, but again, if the wind is not -contstant- all day long, and it rarely is, it's really not fair to the boats who start (or finish) in the light wind vs. boats sailing in the better wind.
I did't really like racing PHRF in mono's, where you have to wait around after the finish to see if you "saved your time" over a slower boat, same for Portsmouth racing in cats, but it beats no racing at all I guess.
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[Re: DanTnz]
#209855
04/29/10 04:35 PM 04/29/10 04:35 PM |
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| I'm still not making my point very well, so let me try another approach.
Shouldn't you be able to predict mathematically how a boat will perform? If so, you predict an outcome and compare that to an individual's actual performance.
For instanced if our model predicts a boat should attain ten knots on a certain course but a sailor only attains eight his performanc could be expressed as .8 or, .800.
Carry this a little further. Let's assume, arbitrarily, that a tack should take ten seconds, and that a weather leg of 100 meters should be sailed in six minutes. If a sailor is required to make four tacks while sailing the 100 meters, his best possible time would be six minutes forty seconds and score 100%. If in fact he sails the course in ten minutes, his score would be .667 (6.67/10= .667) And that would be his rating- .667.
Obviously we would need to add an adjustment for a start and for a down wind leg.
Last edited by pgp; 04/29/10 04:36 PM.
Pete Pollard
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[Re: pgp]
#209856
04/29/10 04:40 PM 04/29/10 04:40 PM |
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Sebring, Florida. | OK, but how do you define the -baseline- or the 100%? Is it a relative thing, ie. the 'fastest' guy at the time trials is the baseline 100% model, and then every one else is some percentage over his time on the upwind leg you described?
That works for that day, but then later in the year, how do you figure you are improving? By how close to that guy you finish in another race? What if he got slower instead of you getting faster?
I've been in favor of measurnig our courses so we can tell how fast we are going, upwind and down, and I think that would help in your system, as we would need couses to be exactly the same distance, but what about the wind?
Blade F16
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[Re: Timbo]
#209857
04/29/10 04:50 PM 04/29/10 04:50 PM |
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| I THINK a polar could determine the base line.
Pete Pollard
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[Re: pgp]
#209858
04/29/10 04:56 PM 04/29/10 04:56 PM |
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Sebring, Florida. Timbo
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Sebring, Florida. | Again, we would have to measure our courses, but with today's GPS, it should be pretty easy to get them fairly close to what ever distance we decide is best. (1 mile upwind?)
Blade F16
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[Re: pgp]
#209880
04/30/10 02:13 AM 04/30/10 02:13 AM |
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Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K Mark P
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Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K | Check out Sailwave, there you can have BCE and BCR Columns added to the results. A competitors BCR figure is the rating they actually raced to. For instance if a F16 wins a race they raced to their rating (TEXEL 102). However, the second boat was a F18 and depending how far they were behind the F16 their BCR could be 103 (TEXEL F18 rating is 100), third was another F16 and again depending on the time difference their BCR could be 104. So the BCR gives an automatic "rating" based on the BCE which is the adjusted time they lost by, or to put it another way the amount of time they needed to be quicker to win the race.
Therefore, you could possibly use this information over time to come up with a persons average BCR rating (Their actual performance rating. A F16 using TEXEL is 102 however, my actual rating based on last years results could be 105!).
I guess you could use this information to come up with National rankings like they do in NZ or in our case if all F16 were scored using Sailwave you could theoretically produce a fairly accurate World Rankings list based on "Club Racing Results"
Last edited by Mark P; 04/30/10 04:10 AM.
MP*MULTIHULLS
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[Re: Timbo]
#209884
04/30/10 04:30 AM 04/30/10 04:30 AM |
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Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K Mark P
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Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K | A friend of mine has just returned from a National Mark laying course in preparation for the Olympics and has found out that his fairly expensive Marine GPS was positioning himself 300m differently to the Instructor /Examiner on several occasions. When he returned home and phoned Garmin they weren't exactly helpful and thought that 300m was an acceptable degree of inaccuracy. Martin then explained that the competitors at the Olympics may not have the same view. Garmin could only suggest that a more expensive GPS would probably be more accurate.
So I guess you can't believe everything your GPS is telling you as it sounds that they aren't as accurate as Garmin would like to make you think.
MP*MULTIHULLS
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[Re: Mark P]
#209885
04/30/10 05:01 AM 04/30/10 05:01 AM |
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Live in Germany, House in UK, ... DanTnz
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Live in Germany, House in UK, ... | Mark, I'm no expert on this (although I bet some of the ex-pilots on here are), but there are many many variables to GPS, the handset yes, but also which satelites are being picked up and whether there is a variable offset. When I was still serving we were issued mil codes for GPS as the US (who own the system) would insert a variable offset in the system to ensure it could not be used for military purposes. That said, I beleieve the GPS would still be accurate relative to itself, i.e. if you used the same GPS to mark out the whole course, the distance and angles between marks would still be right. This might have changed though as I heard the offsets were reduced or removed. When I did some time on a survey boat, they would set up ground stations at known locations for coastal work so they always had a absolute reference (known as Differential GPS I think).
Apparently the new Euro system we are all being taxed for will be very accurate and not use any offsets.
Any experts out there? | | | Re: ratings
[Re: waynemarlow]
#209888
04/30/10 06:34 AM 04/30/10 06:34 AM |
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Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K Mark P
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Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K | I take your point Wayne and I'm sorry about the thread hijack. Maybe I could have been a bit more explicit because when Martin explained the problem the person on the other end of the phone at Garmin knew which model GPS unit Martin had before Martin had told them. So Garmin are aware that there is an accuracy problem. However, because this Unit is over three years old they weren't prepared to fix or replace it under warranty.
I guess you just pay your money and take your chance but in Martin's case having known him for a long time he has definitely looked after this and all his other mark laying kit.
MP*MULTIHULLS
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[Re: Mark P]
#209892
04/30/10 07:32 AM 04/30/10 07:32 AM |
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| Check out Sailwave, there you can have BCE and BCR Columns added to the results. A competitors BCR figure is the rating they actually raced to. For instance if a F16 wins a race they raced to their rating (TEXEL 102). However, the second boat was a F18 and depending how far they were behind the F16 their BCR could be 103 (TEXEL F18 rating is 100), third was another F16 and again depending on the time difference their BCR could be 104. So the BCR gives an automatic "rating" based on the BCE which is the adjusted time they lost by, or to put it another way the amount of time they needed to be quicker to win the race.
Therefore, you could possibly use this information over time to come up with a persons average BCR rating (Their actual performance rating. A F16 using TEXEL is 102 however, my actual rating based on last years results could be 105!).
I guess you could use this information to come up with National rankings like they do in NZ or in our case if all F16 were scored using Sailwave you could theoretically produce a fairly accurate World Rankings list based on "Club Racing Results" This is more like what I had in mind,except that I'd like to see ratings races run on very short courses, perhaps ten minutes total. The point is to make PRACTICE more fun and competitive as well as to be able to measure improvement.
Pete Pollard
Blade 702
'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.
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[Re: waynemarlow]
#209898
04/30/10 08:04 AM 04/30/10 08:04 AM |
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| You guys are making this way to complicated! Use of a gps in this application is ridiculous. Geometery would be much more useful. Particularly on a windward/leeward course of 100-200 meters.
Pete Pollard
Blade 702
'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.
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[Re: pgp]
#209901
04/30/10 09:56 AM 04/30/10 09:56 AM |
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MERRITTISLAND, FL Matt M
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MERRITTISLAND, FL | You guys are making this way to complicated! Use of a gps in this application is ridiculous. Geometery would be much more useful. Particularly on a windward/leeward course of 100-200 meters.
At a 300 m deviation, the GPS is still way more accurate than any course performance you might be able to get. Changes in wind strength, dirrection, waves, currents, salinity, altitude. | | |
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