So if you build this ultra stiff all carbon uberboat, how much faster will it be? It would still have a similar water line and weigh as much as the old T 4.9.

There are ways to deal with this issue in a positive fashion, rather than letting it hang over the class' head like some storm cloud. Personally, I like the idea of a "prototype" rating: one off boats that are eligible for participation but not necessarily scored in official standings. You could implement that along with a GTO rule to ensure that the entire fleet does not become obsolete overnight.

I bid an US$ 100.000 class killer.

Who's dares raising "the stakes" even higher ?

Don't be shy, get your 15 minutes of attention now !

Wouter

I suggest we do it all in forged magnesium, hull, mast, the lot.

Imagine the bond fire we could do once this thing lose the first race its in

How do you measure stiffness? In one plane or many? Is absolute stiffness even desirable, or is some flexibility a good thing?

Like weight, I suspect it's importance is overstated.

And then a 15yr. old and a 17yr. old will still kick your butt on a "heavy" Viper...

Yeah, let's spend more money! That'll fix it! Always does, just ask BP how that's working for them in the Gulf.

That's my point. Frankly, I think it's more likely someone will come out with a heavy "cheap" F16. Maybe rotomolded?

It'd be 500lbs, and stiff as a over cooked noodle.

Maybe not.

http://www.hobiecat.com/sailing/models_getaway.html

Hey Honey, walk out on that forward tramp and fix that spinnaker for me, wouldja? Nice!

I say, maybe, maybe not....


I would have thought someone would have done that already, but maybe I'm mistaken.


Have you guys seen the debate about the bannana boards in the A-class?

A completely new innovation and the jury hasn't reached a verdict, yet!

So, in conclusion to this discussion, it may or may not make s difference.

Sometimes, your better off spending some of that extra money on coaching.

Mike

So which boat do you sail the most? The Prindle or the Blade?

Well an hour ago I was out on the H14 to meet up with a "new guy" who also has a H14 out on Lake Jackson, I'm going to try to get him out on the Prindle trap next time it's blowing. I usually sail the Prindle because it's all set up on the beach, ready to go, jib rolled on the headstay, all I have to do is raise up the main and I'm off.

The Blade lives tied to the trailer, mast down, under a cover. I am going to rig it up today and try to get some practice in tomorrow and Friday, if there is any wind, it's very light today.

You *NEED* a new F16 so that you can keep the Blade mast up on the beach and the NEW F16 on the trailer (under the cover) and ready to go racing!

Yes, I agree, now...you tell my wife!

What's the point of having the mast down? Here on our beach we have the boats all the season outside mast up, in every weather, no shelter. We do this with all sort of boat, my Javelin, some A-cats, Darts, Hobies, Ts. Boats are moored to the ground.

Cheers,

Klaus

That's fine if your racing is always from the same beach, the beach has space for mast up storage and the storage is available for a reasonable cost.

Agreed, but I was wondering why having the Prindle and not the Blade on the beach.

I keep my "racing boat" in pristine condition, that is, no Florida Sunlight, no bugs, no dirt, and I spend at least 3 hours washing and waxing it before I take it to any regatta. When I arrive at the regatta, I wash it again. Why? Because a bug might have splat itself on the bow. Call me Anal, I know I am when it comes to clean racing boats.

The Prindle is my back yard beach beater that is rougher than...well...it's rough, so no amount of Florida Sun can do any more damage to it. It's a great beater for when it's blowing 20 and I don't mind breaking stuff. The Blade however, breaking stuff on that boat gets expensive.

I just spent $450 for 1 new dagger board. The Prindle doesn't even have daggerboards, which is another reason I love it! The Blade is a Porche, the Prindle is a Mack Truck. Each has it's purpose and each is very good at what it was designed for.

If it makes you feel any better, I did rig up the Blade today and sailed it for an hour, 5 sets, douses, 20 gybes, 30 tacks, but the wind was light and by the time I got out it was after 5pm. Tomorrow I'll be out there early, all day, and on Friday I'm going to wash and wax it...again, then load it up for the trip to Cocoa early on Saturday. Why not Friday night? Because there are too many Love Bugs out on Friday afternoon, Saturday at 7am there won't be as many bugs to go splat on my clean racing boat so it will be easier to clean when I get there.

Hey, who's watching the Celtic-Magic series?? I am tonight.

<**** boat making a killing !

The fact that these 20's are also longer, wider, taller and have 15 sq. mtr. more sail area didn't seem to help much either !

Wouter

Could it also be the "nut on the tiller" doing the work.

Of course, that is why all this "US$40K class killer" nonsense is such BS.

In the overall scheme of things, material choice is an almost negligliable factor. It comes well behind other factors like sailor skill, the boxrule limits, sailcut, luck, etc.

That is the core argument of these posts.


I would have loved to the faces of those crews laying down 35k and for that "all-carbon miracle" and then finding themselves trailing behind a much smaller plain glass/alu cat costing less then half their purchase cost. Can't say that they weren't warned, we've seen this happen several times before with the M20's and F18's.

Wouter

Wout, just so you know, I'm on your side in this thing.

haven't we beaten this dead horse enough? just bury it please..

Is it truly dead? I'd be very happy to learn that is the case, but it keeps resurrecting itself.

Perhaps when it stops attracting responses...

Decomposition is a long, drawn out process. First, flies & vultures. Then maggots. Later worms. I think we have seen them all just with other identities.

Come on... The reason the issue is not dead (great graphic Kris) is that you have not convinced the general cat racing public that you are right and this weight thing is a non issue!

Your recent problem is that a very very good Hobie 16 RACER (meaning, a team that races nationally at 280 to 310... eg. a perfect F16 candidate) looks at the two spin classes and has to choose between the F18 scene and the F16 scene. Obviously, he considered all the factors but he opted for the F18.
The good news is that he told you of his concern about the potential for an equipment edge which could be easily purchased by some. That's not a game he will play.

The largest market of racers is the Hobie 16 class. The F16 Class should be very concerned when top sailors in such a class opt out of the F16 over a rule. They race a SMOD and the vast majority truly believe that their boat's value is best preserved with a very tightly regulated class. You can argue the point all you want. The fact of life is that this portion of the cat racing public will consider the issue, especially when the top sailors make their choice. Good Luck declaring it a dead issue.

Bottom line.. the horse will not die for those consumers and it factors into their decision if the they want to move up to a spin boat class.

Your move!

Mark, the -only- reason I bought into the F16 class was the flexability to race Uni or Sloop. If that option did not exist, ie. F18, I would have bought a used A cat instead. Not everyone has reliable crew, and not everyone wants to race the F18. The F16 class offers that flexability and really isn't concerned with grabbing fully crewed teams who are F18 compatible, size wise. If a big crew comes out of the H16 class looking for a spin boat, the F18 is the way to go. If instead it's a smaller pair, or parent/child, and they occaisionally want to race even when their crew is not available, the F16 is the only choice.

It really has nothing to do with worrying about some Racer X boat coming along and undercutting the class.

Hi Timbo,

I must admit that I feel a bit dirty, if I read your post. I wax my boat one or two times per year. The only sweet water she sees is if it rains and at the end of last season I put the still wet sails with the tied battens in the bag and forgot it over the winter... we Europeans are a bit filthy

How does your wife deal with your passion for shine hulls?

Cheers,

Klaus

I make her take a bath before she comes to bed...then I 'wax her bottom' until it's as shiney and smooth as my boat!

She is a bit jelous of my love for my boat I think. She tried to hit it when it was in the driveway once! She swore she didn't see it but how can you miss seeing a bright white boat on a trailer?? I know it was intentional. Luckily I saw her aiming at it and yelled so she stopped.

When she's really mad at me, she'll threaten to come to a regatta and ruin my fun!

Depends where you are. The H16 was the youth boat for a while in Europe (with a spi) but this is no longer the case. there is no adult H16 regata that I know of. I can't recall the last time I saw a H16 sailing in a regatta. Most H16 sailors are, at this point, recreational sailors.

The H16 is a fun but completely obsolete boat, even more so without a spi. Heck, the BHCCA (British Hobie Cat Class Association) is the RYA group training the top young cat teams in the UK. The youngest are training on Hobie Dragoon, the older are on not on hobies at all: they sail Spitfires. They do participate in the European H16 championships, but this is not their boat of choice. Their main goal is to get beefy enough to get on a F18.

Same in France, where the youth boat is the SL16, and no young racer will even consider buying a H16.

The US is a special case, with the huge fleets of obsolete H16 without spi. If you get your head out of your country you will see that the goal of the Viper is to provide an alternative to the F18 for the lighter crews who can't switch to the F18 and be competitive there. The H16 is never ever in the picture.

Treat her carefully. She knows where she can hit you hard.

Yeah...I do sleep on my stomach these days!

Pepin

In North America.. the largest one design fleet turnouts (not even nationals) are Hobie 16's. (In the 2010 season... See Madcatter Regatta..,. 35 plus boats. Next in line is the A class (midwinters... 30 or so boats... F18's are third at their Spring Fever regional. Hardly Obsolete! ...and my essential point is... that if you want to attract racers from cat racing classes... then you need to address their issues....

Sounds like the target market is quite a bit more fractured in the EU and you don't need to market to Hobie 16 sailors. The risk of course is that the EU scene fractures some more with lots of 16 foot one design classes fighting for market share and occasionally agreeing to level racing under the F16 umbrella.

Calling a CLASS obsolete is not right. Fact of the matter.. in North America ... THE CLASS of Hobie 16's is probably the best organized class going and they generate the best turnouts. Fact is... they are the leader in North America cat racing and quite strong in other parts of the world as well. The need for a two person non spin boat race cat is clear in the North American market. Notice that there are lots of non spin dinghy classes that are quite old as well which meet the needs of dinghy sailors.
Perhaps the word you were looking for is Classic?

A couple of weeks ago I was competing at the UK A Class National Championships. It was a fantastic event and the racing was really close amongst the whole fleet, well the winner was in a Class of his own with 5 Bullets and a DNC. However, and my point is I was on a 2006 Bimare AJ which is made from GRP and not Carbon. Did I or any of the other competitors notice. NO, did it effect my results, I doubt it. I lead a race at one point, and was last but one at one point. The major factor for my performance was me and definitely not the construction of the platform. I have now vowed to become more consistent whilst racing a series of this nature and the only way this will happen is time on the water. Although, a DNA would be nice.

Wouter: can you honestly say that Bundy on a built to the rule F16 would not thrash the **** out of his identical twin on a standard Viper?

If you think it makes no difference then why allow it to even be an option to build such a boat if all it serves is to increase the expenses??

Are you asking me if Darren or Carolijn on say a 19.200 Euro glass/alu/carbon mast (thus min. weight) Falcon F16 (19.800 USD) would beat a 17.750 Euro glass/alu/F18 parts (thus 129 kg) Viper F16 ? That is when both are sailed by their identical twin ?

Yes, I do think that that Falcon would give its crew an egde over the Viper crew, although not at all an extremely large edge. Also note that I could have used the Aussie Blade or Stealth in this example.

What I do contest however is that such a full-to-rule-F16 is anything other then sub 20K in purchase price (as proven by the quotes) and is therefor on a par with a competitive F18. Thus putting the lie that a full-to-the-rule-F16 is anywhere near 35K or whatever the latest scare quote is.

I also claim that this situation is solely the cause of a business decision on the side of AHPC and not any fundamental flaw in the F16 class rules. Hell, what do you expect when using F18 components on a F16 design ? If 3 builders can do it compared to 1 who can't then the norm is definately with the first 3 and the F16 class rules.

Still I think the difference is surprisingly small. Weight is not such an important issue on these boats as is also proven by the large spread in competive crew weights.






Obviously you have it all backwards. Obviously, these full-to-the-rule-F16's were already available for sub 20K expenses when the Viper F16 was launched. Therefore the F16 class doesn't allow a lighter boat to be build and raced relative to the norm but rather it allows a heavier boat then the norm to be build and raced i.e. the Viper. The effect on purchase price is negligiable as the quotes show. The customer knows this before he signs the purchase contract and he is always allowed to disadvantage himself if he wants to. Why on earth would any class outlaw sub optimal designs from racing ? The only crew suffering here is the guy who knowingly chose to buy the suboptimal boat. He can just as easily buy another design without this disadvantage. Hell, I have suboptimal boat myself (according to you that is) and am very content accepting the disadvantage which I perceive to be minimal at best.


Having said all this I truly believe that we are nitpicking here. Boatweight and platform stiffness are not big factors in the overall performance of a modern spinaker catamaran. Some of you are making far too much of these factors. The secret of the F16's is in the carefully balanced design ratio's and these are largely unaffected by material choices. An expensive lesson that some overhyped-and-overpriced-all-carbon N20 crews learned recently at the North Sea Regatta (as several M20 crews did before them). I'll bet they were very pleased when the race committed allowed Brouwer/Bundock to start with the F18 fleet after the first few races in the open class. Could have been a promotional disaster for these new 20 footers.


By the way, have you found that F17 measurement form yet ?

Wouter

How does knocking five pounds out of the boat get the Falcon to minimum again?




Thats what I was quoted.

Quoted by whom ?

Wouter

If weight was not such an issue, then why do sailors (who know a thing or two about sailing) scrape to remove every gram they can to get as close to min weight as possible....... And F16 sailors believe 18 kg makes no difference.

If platform stiffness is not critical, then why do teams re-beam their boats when they start to get a little sloppy. Marstrom hulls will near on last a life time. All you need to do is re-beam them every now and then to keep them competitive. Taipan 4.9 sailors often re-beam old boats to try and restore platform rigidity. Small beam Tornado sailors over the years have re-beamed their boats with bigger, stiffer beams. AHPC in the last few years of the Capricorn production produced new beams of slightly better alloy quality, thicker side walls, slightly larger diameter and thicker webbing, all to increase stiffness (Brett could you confirm this).

So is weight and platform stiffness really important or are the F16 sailors right and some of our world’s best sailors have no clue.

The nut behind the tiller will always make the biggest impact. I have seen Mossies regularly beat a classic rigger tornado around the course, but I sure as hell know which is the quicker boat. In big fleet racing, a boat length difference here and there or a few degrees deeper can make a big difference to the overall result. So, should the sailing be only about the sailor, or should you allow the boat to also contribute to the result.

I cannot divulge that information at this time as it may compromise our agents in the field........

You don't even want to know what my Invisible F16 cost, it is a bitch to wax it though...

I also know more then a few women who nearly starve themselves to death and look like bloody skeletons because they've somehow convinced themselves that they are more attractive that way.

I guess that you also feel that the doctors and psychiatrists are wrong to claim the opposite in this case as well ? Hundred thousants of women can't be wrong right ? ... Right ?





Correction, the company AHPC believes such a thing. All the other F16 builders and class member opinions are nowhere near that far away from the minimum weight. Hell, even my own ply homebuild is not that far off the class minimum and that says something as I was not at all anal about a few grams here and there !

Wouter

Maybe it is time to remind such agents what it means to be part of the team.

Additionally, this agent wouldn't personally benefit in any way from any "accidental" falsehoods that are let loose in the public sphere, right ? Of course, like no other he understands the undesireable effects such an accident can lead to. God forbid, he should find himself at the receiving end.

Maybe discuss this with him the next time you grap a beer together.

Wouter

That is nothing !

Since I filled my hulls with helium, I need a zeppelin like landing mast on my trailer and talk funny while racing.

Wouter

Hey, about that helium, I thought I read an article in Sailing World about the BMW-Oracle Tri that mentioned they had filled the amas with helium? They didn't go into any detail about how much helium, or how much weight that saved them, anyone know any more details about it?

Great idea...but what's helium cost these days? We could fill up our masts and then not have to worry about turtling!

It is a great example of how to fool the ignorant with a catchy one-liner.

In reality there is only about 450 liters of air in one hull and that amounts to a weight of 0.45*1.293 kg = 0.582 kg.

Ofcourse you can never reduce that amount to zero by replacing it with helium therefore the max weight gain you can achieve with both hulls full of helium is 2*0.582 = 1.164 kg

I'm sure nutcases like Macca or TornadoAlive will easily spend 35K on getting their hulls fully (helium) airtight (hard to do with such small molecules) and buy a years worth of helium supply ! Afterall they will win all races with such a large performance gain !

Wouter

Thanks for putting words into our mouth...

Lets look at the facts...a group of catamaran sailors looked at the boats offered to the public and found none to their liking. This group came up with their dream boat...defined by a box rule...one of the key criteria was light weight.They moved forward with much criticism, they were told the concept would never get off the ground...but it did...the owners were happy...and several builders were happy to make
the F16 acording to the agreed box rules...including building the boats to the minimum weight or very close to it...every thing was good in F16 land...the F16 sailors had their
dream boat and all was right with the world....

That is until "pro sailor" Macca shows up...he's not happy with the minimum weight...he
doesn't care what the sailors want who developed the class and have everything just as
they envisioned it...he knows better than they do...he wants to come in and re-write the
rules to dumb down the F16 to make it like all the other blahza cats in dead boat
society land. He chooses to ignore the fact that boats are being built to minimum weight
or very close to it and the only people who seem to have a problem with the minimum
weight is Macca, his minions, and AHPC (who utilized F18 parts for economy of
scale)...everyone else (owners and builders) seems to be just fine with the minimum
weight as written.


Macca should follow his own advice and create, fund and promote a 16 foot class with whatever weight he wants and leave F16 to those who created it and enjoy it on its own
merits.

As for pro sailors, who gives a flip what they want? We have to pay out the yazoo to do what these guys get paid to do...excuse me as I wipe away a tear for Macca not getting his way...NOT!

If someone is going to spend their money...they want what they want....not what some pro sailor wants...not what some manufacture wants to give them...its their money and if you can't (or won't) give them what they want, someone else will step up to the plate and get the job done...to spec, on budget...on time...no excuses.

Actually Wouter.. filling a boat with helium is not as silly as it sounds...

Early 80's there was a lot of experimentation done in the moth class here in Oz, they put bladders into the hulls and filled them with lighter than air gas.

the net result was negligible, but still quite a few pursued it. obviously the moth hulls had a lot more volume back then and there was nothing in the class rules to prevent it.

so a very old idea being rehashed yet again.

Sounds like a conspiracy theory. Time to knock the dust off of the tinfoil hat.

Reality is if you want to work with a design firm, build moulds, then build a boat, you're looking at a ~$70k price tag for the first one, maybe more. I can't spend that, my ol' lady would kill me, not even kidding, dead. But, I could spend $35k and probably still walk away. Would I have a "class killer"? No, I wouldn't. The market will bear, what the market will bear, and there just isn't enough people willing to spend that kind of money on an F16 catamaran. Having a half dozen boats making full use of what is available won't change a thing. It would be faster, there is no arguing that a an ultra stiff, and light weight boat wouldn't be, providing it had the right shape to it.

If I can swing it, and pull it together, I want it. What I really want is a complete one off, being I that's not fiscally possible at the moment, it probably won't happen.

It always comedown to the crew though, and I'm working on improving that as well.

Nicely constructed argument there Wouter. How about answering the question properly. Your reference of women is relating to so called physical improvement. My reference to sailors relates to a performance improvement, so your argument is of very little substance.

I would imagine AHPC are more focused on producing a product that is cost efficient and performs. They are under no illusion that if their boat was 18 kg lighter, it would be quicker...... But also more expensive. They have designed and built a boat that performs equally or better than all current F16s, giving away a weight advantage but making up for it with superior design.

The reason why large volume manufacturers find it expensive to build boats down to weight, fully utilising the freedom of the current formula is because catamaran manufacturing is not an on the side “hobby” project for them, but either their main source of income or an economically viable business in its own right. They offer worldwide distribution, dealer servicing, marketing, product warranty, extensive research and development programs.
Quote below from Brett Goodall.
http://www.catsailor.com/forums/ubb...ords=warranty&Search=true#Post210876

There is more to speed than weight. I would like to see the F16 weight limit removed.. no min weight.. As there is a lot more to performance than min weight.

I personally believe the Viper beams are not even close to being to big. It makes a massive difference in performance to the boat.

F18 beams in general are to small.
Have you seen the size of the tree trunks on the M20.

The Viper is fast because it has stiff hulls, bulkheads/sub decks, stronger beams. It not a business decision to put on the same beams its a performance/quality decision.

Do you hear any Viper sailors wanting to raise the class weight?

So remove the weight limit, let everyone find a compromise between weight, quality, stiffness, performance.. The Viper won't change. I predict the boats will get heavier and stronger and hence faster. Unless your willing to spend real $$$'s.

F16 is a development class, go for it...

ROFL. For somebody claiming to be so smart you do post stupid things at times.

Are you sure they don't just consider the advantages of the larger hull design and shape to be of greater advantage than the extra weight being a disadvantage?

Just a thought... I wonder how fast the Viper would go if they were able to ditch the extra 20(?) kgs???

Tiger Mike

"They have attracted world class crews who perform equally or better then all current F16 crews, accepting a weight disadvantage in boat design but making up for it with superior sailing skills by their crews."


So, I've correct your mistakes for you.

Wouter

Get your facts and head straight. This is what the class rules say.



It is not a pure development class and never was. Good luck with your products and new career.

Sadly we do, or are we to count for example Greg or Robbie (see youtube video's) not as a Viper sailors ?

This has got to stop.

And the doomsday quotes of 35K+ for an optimized F16 (that seem to come from "nowhere") must end with it.

We are all in this boat together and it will do no good for anyone to polute one's own nest.

It is time to close the ranks and grow this exiting class together.

Fortunately most Viper owners do not fuzz at all about such issues and are happy to participate in the F16 class and we welcome them all warmly.






I would claim that the Viper is fast because it is an F16 !

The F16 class design ratio's are spot on. For example, the sheet loads are viable to mixed crews because the sails are better proportioned to the physique of such crews and not because the hull has bulkheads (that in fact all F16 builds have). Improved ability to sheet the sails makes crews faster.



Of course the F16 class will NOT remove the minimum ready-to-sail weight from the class rules. If we did then yes I think a 35K F16 will be a realistic possibility. There is no point in going overboard in this sense.

I do however fully agree with mr Bundock statement to :"... let everyone find a compromise between weight, quality, stiffness, performance ..."

That is exactly the basic idea behind a formula set of class rules. It allows for slow development giving us better boats over time while maintaining fair racing and also limiting the purchase cost to acceptable levels.

Wouter

45degapparent,

I can't fault the facts in your posting and so I won't.

I also understand the sentiment that is expressed with it and I recognize that many have become irritated in a similar fashion. I too have become fed up with certain parties trying to be both in and out of the class, causing a huge amount of controversy that is quickly nearing its "enough-is-enough" point. It appears that this is giving rise to a backslash to anything related to the Viper or Australia and that is very regrettable.

Yet I feel Darren Bundock (poster Bundy) is very much innocent in this respect. I recently had a meeting with him and Carolijn Brouwer and discussed various issues related to the F16 with them.

I found them to be fully supportive of the F16 class and their concern was much more related to the enduring controversy then with the F16 class rules. On this area I think we all fully agree. The solution is therefore simple, keep what we got in the way of class rules structure and put an end to the endless controversies.

I feel that is also what Darren is saying in his posting.

I'm looking forward to working together with him and Carolijn in growing the class here in NL en EU

Wouter

congrats on your teams recent successes...

Hope you are enjoying the "retirement"..
All the very best

Cheers

Stewart (hoping to retire very soon)

I think that the above statement is a very valid one and one that time will prove. With the technologies available the 100 kilo boat is very feasible but to achieve that weight the boat will be smaller in all areas including hull volumes and beams and hence will not be as stiff and will sit lower in the water ( drag ). That balance between stiffness, hull volume and economy of build will be the leveller in performance and for me that is a really good thing as it will allow the heavier boats such as the Viper to compete equally with the more exotically built lighter boats.

As to taking the min weight rule away all together, to thornier subject to even contemplate for a few years I'm afraid.

When we envisioned this class and began it my objective was a light (since I'm getting old and too many years of dragging 300+ lb boats up beaches, raising heavy masts, trying to right heavy NACRAS/Hobies, took it's toll on my back), high performance small cat that could be sailed/raced by one crew or two by just slightly changing sail plan. I used to sail NACRA 18sqs and they are certainly a fast single hander but heavy, hard to move around, heavy mast, almost impossible to right, etc. I bought an old "woody" A cat- ~200 lbs. and took it to sail with my old 18sq buddies- amazingly to about everyone it was just as fast around a W-L course as the bigger, wider, much more sail area squares- but the trailering, launching, righting, sheet loads etc. were so much lower I could see sailing/living with this boat into "old age". Since I had kids the option to carry them with me occasionally was something I really wanted to. It was at the "A" cat worlds talking to Jim and Greg when I found out about the Taipan- which was being built and sold at the current F16 weight and met my "ideal requirements" quite closely. So I got the first one in the US, and with some other international Taipan enthusiasts, we looked at the success and model of the F18 class and designed ours around a simple concept: a light, 16 foot catamaran with relatively high performance at a relatively economical price that could be sailed either one or two up "heads up" that could be built by anyone who chose to meet the "box rules". BIM was building the BIM 16 at the time and the hope was this would provide another production boat to get the class off the ground, but it was up to the Taipan to do that alone- and it was obviously up to the task.
I agree with Bundy that there is more to speed than (boat) weight- I raced for years on a 365 lb. NACRA 5.0 (not knowing it was that heavy until we finally weighed all the boats a Nationals!) and did very well against lighter boats- certain conditions can even give a heavier boat an advantage IMO. But unfortunately dragging/trailering/loading/righting that boat by myself was a killer compared to my 220 lb Taipan or 165 lb "A" cat.
The beauty of a box rule is everybody who meets the min/maxs of the rule can play and can design a boat that meets their specific needs. I for one would rather spend another several hundred dollars or Euros for a lighter boat not because it might be marginally faster but for all the other reasons. When we first started this class many of the "originals" had some physical "issues"- bad back for me, several with severe arm injuries, desire to sail with a small child/crew, etc.
This group has always been about being a little "different"- and that's fine with me- and I think everyone is entitled to their opinion and we should respect that as long as they are not trying to force it on the rest of us.
I am just thrilled that 10 years after envisioning this class we have had multiple manufacturers of great products support our class and design/build boats to our rule. I think that is enough of a testament as to the validity of the original concept of the class. Macca, Brett, Mike, Bundy, Wouter, etc. all have some good points- let's focus on the positive and let people design/build/sail the F16 they want.
I personally am off to sail my old original Taipan!

Kirt

Interesting detail here is that Bimare has announced to launch a full compliant F16.

So we may come full circle on this soon.

Of course, back then the Stealth F16 replaced the Bim as the second production boat.

Wouter

It would be nice- BIM builds an economical boat at a light weight and having a manufacturer in Italy could only help our numbers in southern Europe don't you think?

Kirt