Thanks all for all you input, especially Eric with his detailed analysis.

My take home lesson: If you attempt a pass to windward, make sure you have the room and the speed to finish the maneuver without being impaired by anything the passed boat does. I'll give myself more room next time.

I hope someone says something to me if I foul them... the problem is if someone else fouls me I wonder whether they were just being punks or didn't understand that they were fouling me. If I know someone on the course and I think I may have fouled them (or that they fouled me) I try to find them at the end and ask what their interpretation was. It is hard to make that confrontation sometimes but it is honestly the only way I will learn (or they will learn).
For example... I was driving one time and felt I had the right of way at a mark. They screamed at me and I was like W.T.F.? I found that person at the end because I honestly wondered whether I had truly fouled them as they have a lot more experience than I do racing. They replied to me when I asked what was up: "no problem, you totally had me."
Why were they yelling to start with.... they were having a bad race....

Not exactly - It's saying that a leeward boat with much slower speed potential should expect to get passed to windward by the boat with much higher speed potential and should have rights only to a point.

I think the term "rights" is unfortunate. The phrase "right of way" is also misleading. We see those words and think of the rules as entitlements. Then we get upset when people violate our "rights".

If you turn that around and read the rules as obligations, then things get simpler and less heated. A port-tack boat is obligated to keep clear of a starboard-tack boat. A windward boat is obligated to keep clear of a leeward boat on the same tack. A boat clear astern is obligated to keep clear of a boat clear ahead on the same tack. A boat that is changing course is obligated to give a keep-clear boat room to keep clear. All boats are obligated to avoid contact if reasonably possible, and so on.

A boat may be "right-of-way" and still have several other obligations.

I hope that helps,
Eric

Hi Eric. Why did you say "Yellow did not become overlapped from astern (she was ahead)."? Blue came from astern to pass to windward, at some point they were overlapped. What am I missing?

Also, why is there all this debate about allowing blue "room" to drop her chute? Why can't a spin boat round up all the way to irons with the chute up, especially in light air?

Mike

Mike,

Because in anything above about 5 kts; a single handed F16 will capsize with the kite up if you head up too high; even with the traveller and mainsheet dumped

Really? Even with the spinnaker sheet dumped?

Mike

Eric,
That is a very helpful point you are making. Claiming “No rights” is an overused and miss-used short cut. On Tuesday night we were having a rules discussion at the bars end and the "no rights" statement came up. And I started to respond they have the right to not be collided with, so although they are in the wrong they still have at least one "right" or entitlement. It would not have helped. At least Mast-abeam didn’t come up, we are making progress…

The boats became overlapped, but Yellow was not astern - she was ahead. Let's take a look at the rule in question:
Yellow was not clear astern before she became overlapped, so rule 17 does not apply to her. Blue was clear astern before becoming overlapped, but she became overlapped to windward (not leeward) of Yellow, so rule 17 does not apply to her either. Neither boat was restricted from sailing above her proper course.

I hope that helps,
Eric

You should read RRS 17 "ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE" with rapt attention to understand that sentence

In that particular case RRS 17 doesn't apply because the leeward boat didn't get there by overtaking.

You can also say, phrasing it differenty, that RRS 17 doesn't apply as it could be only triggered by the overtaking boat passing to leeward.

Same thing. This rule cannot apply.

Trust me, the problem isn't that I don't understand RRS 17. The reason Rule 17 doesn't apply is because she was originally clear ahead.

I think I read Eric's original sentence out of context of Rule 17. I've read his post again, makes more sense to me now.

I'm really not sold that a spin boat can't go upwind with the chute up and flogging without capsizing (especially in light air). I think I'd need to see that in person.

Mike

ditto

on my 5.5, i might be able to point the bows upwind but i sure couldn't sail with my spin floggin me in the face... it would be all over the deck, in the spreaders, in the halyard, in the jib and there would be no way it would snuff.

i am sure i would capsize (or break) with any decent gust around 9 or soooo

I agree with that, in most instances, you probably could luff the kite and let it flog and sail higher...is that seamanlike? (I'm just asking the question).

I spent a lot of time 2 summers ago experimenting sailing with the spi up at high angles to see if I could make it pay to sail lower; but much faster upwind in very light conditions with plans to use it if it worked at that years Piers race; I could sail about 15 degrees lower(but it took ages to get going and I did not have a lot of control).

It was fast in about 2kts of wind; 3kts the traveller was at the end stop and 3-4+ the mainsheet was dumped; anymore and the kite would tip me in. The transition from “some control” to “must bear off RIGHT NOW” was a very small difference in apparent wind; I’m sure sometimes my own speed caused me to have to bear off as the apparent built to the point I was no longer under control!

Sometimes the rudders would stall and I would do an uncontrolled bear off; sometimes the plates would stall and the boat would slide sideways; sometimes the rudders would stall and the boat would slam tack - I COULD tack the boat WITH planning up to about 3-4kts; but not hold head-to or close to wind – it’s a one shot deal to tack.

Not safe to be done around other boats!

Wow... you guys need to race some mono's.

You defend your wind at all costs. You make it clear that you will take a competitor up to head to wind if necessary... should they try that kind of pass. You may lose that race to others who laugh and say... have at it boys and happily sail to the next mark. ... BUT... they won't try the same stunt on you in the next race.. Even boats in different class's won't let you take their wind (cause they get crushed in their class sailing in your dirt... pain is in the eye of the leeward boat).

IMO, Take a boat head to wind... this is a seaman like maneuver that everyone should be able to execute. . .... If the crew on the attacking boat... can't manage to execute the maneuver and capsize in the process... They will foul and take the penalty. Nothing says that the round up maneuver on your particular boat won't mean that you won't have to snuff your chute as a standard practice.

The reality is... the boat clear ahead is looking at the spin boat and coming up to defend and coming up to defend and coming up to defend. If the spin boat doesn't get the message... don't go there... I will luff you up... the spin boat is clueless about racing or simply trying to bully the non spin boat.

As many have said... if you want to pass to windward.. you need to get to your passing lane early... Sailing up on a boats hip... is NOT the proper passing lane.

I would say yes. Not ideal, or tactical, but it is a seamanlike maneuver. Like Mark said, don't they do this all the time on monohulls (particularly in match races)?

Scooby, from your responses it seems like you're hell-bent on the windward boat retaining some right to keep the spinnaker trimmed while being headed up. I think it has to be blown it as part of heading up, if that's what's needed to stay upright. Again, the leeward boat is trying to force windward to sail upwind, which is normally done without a spinnaker, so I think the onus is on the windward boat to trim AND maneuver (not just maneuver).

Mike

Flog the kite and you go over quicker. Simples.

Have you ever sailed a light boat with a kite?

That's the part I'm trying to understand. Thank you Scooby.

If that is true, I agree with you, forcing up a boat in such a way is not going to make any friends...

EDIT: BTW, this is exactly why, when I'm serving on a protest committee for a class I'm unfamiliar with, I ask other jurors (or a disinterested sailor) with class-specific familiarity to confirm or deny the boat-handling testimony given by the parties. You'd be amazed at how effective this is at derailing a lot of nonsense.

Mike

I thought you can't take someone head to wind (fully "luff" them up) unless it is prior to the start. Doesn't proper course come in here somewhere too?