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Re: See the F20c in person [Re: Acat230] #221849
10/18/10 08:10 AM
10/18/10 08:10 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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macca  Offline
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Australia
Originally Posted by Acat230
Macca,

I'll put a break in the exchange between you and Wayne. In the test video, it looks like it's a bit too easy to get a "wheelie" with the boat which while cool to watch, does not seem fast in a straight line. Our experience with the curved boards in the A-Class is to fine tune to get just enough lift to keep the bows up but not much more. Some of the A-Cats are using trunks that allow adjustment of the daggerboard fore and aft rake for different conditions.

It looks like you are always sailing with the windward board at least half up both upwind and downwind. Towards the end of the video, there is a shot of the boat sailing upwind on port tack with the leeward board up about 4-6 inches. Do you think the boards may have too much lift potential (like they experienced with the first iteration for the M-20)? Just curious if there might be more fine tuning.

There is still a lot to be learned about curved daggerboards for sure.

Bob Hodges
A-Class USA 230


Bob,

Its not too easy to get the boat to foil in the extreme, it takes a specific set of circumstances controlled by the sailors in order to make the boat do that trick. In racing conditions the crew have total control over the behaviour and the boat just simply goes faster than you could expect a boat to go.

The windward board will generate lift on the windward side and aid hull flying, so its good to have it down when you want to get the hull up, but after that its quicker to have the board up a little to reduce the windward hull lift.



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Re: See the F20c in person [Re: macca] #221851
10/18/10 08:14 AM
10/18/10 08:14 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Northfield Mn
are the dagger trunks on the new Nacra curved, or are they a big empty box that allows for the curvature of the board?


I'm boatless.
Re: See the F20c in person [Re: Karl_Brogger] #221852
10/18/10 08:17 AM
10/18/10 08:17 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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macca  Offline
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Australia
Curved


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Re: See the F20c in person [Re: macca] #221853
10/18/10 08:22 AM
10/18/10 08:22 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 893
W
waynemarlow Offline
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Originally Posted by macca

Wayne, you can think what you like, but its pretty stupid to try and tell me the component cost breakdown of developing and building these things. I know because I have been involved from concept to production. You are making assumptions without any practical application or first hand knowledge.

Now thats another rash statement, without knowing my history I might just have a bit more knowledge than what you think, have a look at http://www.catsailor.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=212505&page=1

Re: See the F20c in person [Re: waynemarlow] #221854
10/18/10 08:29 AM
10/18/10 08:29 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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macca  Offline
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Australia
Oh, ok then. Its clear to me now that you are very experienced in curved foil development and production.


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Re: See the F20c in person [Re: macca] #221855
10/18/10 08:33 AM
10/18/10 08:33 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 893
W
waynemarlow Offline
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Posts: 893
I might be very experianced, then again in your words " But your statements on the matter to date have led me to believe that you have little knowledge. and it has been said that there is nothing more dangerous than someone with a little knowledge of a subject..."

Re: See the F20c in person [Re: waynemarlow] #221856
10/18/10 08:36 AM
10/18/10 08:36 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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macca  Offline
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Australia
And by showing me that link you are displaying your knowledge of foil development and production? I thought they looked like Stealth foils in the photo's. So I am yet to see anywhere that you have knowledge of foil design, development or production.

correct me if i'm wrong though...


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Re: See the F20c in person [Re: Acat230] #221857
10/18/10 08:36 AM
10/18/10 08:36 AM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 602
Wilmington,NC
Dlennard Offline
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Dlennard  Offline
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Posts: 602
Wilmington,NC
Originally Posted by Acat230
Macca,

I'll put a break in the exchange between you and Wayne. In the test video, it looks like it's a bit too easy to get a "wheelie" with the boat which while cool to watch, does not seem fast in a straight line. Our experience with the curved boards in the A-Class is to fine tune to get just enough lift to keep the bows up but not much more. Some of the A-Cats are using trunks that allow adjustment of the daggerboard fore and aft rake for different conditions.

It looks like you are always sailing with the windward board at least half up both upwind and downwind. Towards the end of the video, there is a shot of the boat sailing upwind on port tack with the leeward board up about 4-6 inches. Do you think the boards may have too much lift potential (like they experienced with the first iteration for the M-20)? Just curious if there might be more fine tuning.

There is still a lot to be learned about curved daggerboards for sure.

Bob Hodges
A-Class USA 230


Bob,

The F20 boards can go under the boat more than the A providing more lift than the A boards. You have to get pretty far back on the boat to make it wheelie.

Wayne,

You know they make a PM button so you and Andrew can have your disagreement offline and the rest of us don't have to wade through all your post to see what is going on in this thread.

Re: See the F20c in person [Re: Dlennard] #221858
10/18/10 08:41 AM
10/18/10 08:41 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 893
W
waynemarlow Offline
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Macca only does things to raise publicity, a PM message would be wasted

Re: See the F20c in person [Re: waynemarlow] #221861
10/18/10 09:05 AM
10/18/10 09:05 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
PTP Offline
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PTP  Offline
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Michigan
whats the warranty like for the boards?

Re: See the F20c in person [Re: waynemarlow] #221862
10/18/10 09:14 AM
10/18/10 09:14 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
PTP Offline
Carpal Tunnel
PTP  Offline
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Michigan
Originally Posted by waynemarlow
Macca only does things to raise publicity, a PM message would be wasted


he probably should "buy an ad" really... however, it is a new design that we are all interested in to some extent. The price of replacement parts is important. I suppose when a boat costs close to 30k then it is understood everything will be more expensive- akin to the the 200k car that gets 5mpg. If you can afford the car you can afford the gas.

Re: See the F20c in person [Re: PTP] #221865
10/18/10 09:37 AM
10/18/10 09:37 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Originally Posted by PTP
Originally Posted by waynemarlow
Macca only does things to raise publicity, a PM message would be wasted


he probably should "buy an ad" really... however, it is a new design that we are all interested in to some extent. The price of replacement parts is important. I suppose when a boat costs close to 30k then it is understood everything will be more expensive- akin to the the 200k car that gets 5mpg. If you can afford the car you can afford the gas.


Macca didn't start this thread, Mike Krantz did.
Why are there F-16 sailors chafing at the bit to give him a hard time. Thinking of trading up or do you have some kind of envy or agenda? Ye doth protest too much.
I like having a factory insider willing to come on here and give us the scoop, sales spiel or not.
Wayne,
By your comment about Pm's ,it rather appears you want this in the public eye ,not Macca.



"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: See the F20c in person [Re: PTP] #221867
10/18/10 09:47 AM
10/18/10 09:47 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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Australia
If you break a board in normal sailing then its covered. If you run into a whale, beach, rock or other object etc then its not covered!


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Re: See the F20c in person [Re: macca] #221868
10/18/10 09:49 AM
10/18/10 09:49 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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macca  Offline
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Australia
Oh, and the F20C dagger board is approx 20% more expensive to buy (retail) than a new F18 dagger board.


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Re: See the F20c in person [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #221869
10/18/10 09:51 AM
10/18/10 09:51 AM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 602
Wilmington,NC
Dlennard Offline
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Dlennard  Offline
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Posts: 602
Wilmington,NC
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by PTP
Originally Posted by waynemarlow
Macca only does things to raise publicity, a PM message would be wasted


he probably should "buy an ad" really... however, it is a new design that we are all interested in to some extent. The price of replacement parts is important. I suppose when a boat costs close to 30k then it is understood everything will be more expensive- akin to the the 200k car that gets 5mpg. If you can afford the car you can afford the gas.


Macca didn't start this thread, Mike Krantz did.
Why are there F-16 sailors chafing at the bit to give him a hard time. Thinking of trading up or do you have some kind of envy or agenda? Ye doth protest too much.
I like having a factory insider willing to come on here and give us the scoop, sales spiel or not.
Wayne,
By your comment about Pm's ,it rather appears you want this in the public eye ,not Macca.



Thanks Todd

That was the same as I was thinking. If you don't have a positive comment to make just keep it to yourself. Andrew has been very helpful with the setup and learning to sail the new boat for us.

Re: See the F20c in person [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #221874
10/18/10 10:38 AM
10/18/10 10:38 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 749
Santa Cruz, CA
SurfCityRacing Offline
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SurfCityRacing  Offline
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Posts: 749
Santa Cruz, CA
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever

Macca didn't start this thread...

I like having a factory insider willing to come on here and give us the scoop...


Absolutely.

Macca interjected here to set the record straight, and to just give some information. I'm glad when any industry rep does that, it raises the quality of the discussion.

If the reps and industry folks don't get out here on the forums, every single freaking time the thread turns into a bunch of garage speculators, whose boat design and industry experience was attained from a gutter boat that they drunkenly built and raced at some regatta.


I'd rather hear Macca.


j

Re: See the F20c in person [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #221877
10/18/10 11:18 AM
10/18/10 11:18 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 606
Maryland
Kris Hathaway Offline
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Kris Hathaway  Offline
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Posts: 606
Maryland
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Why are there F-16 sailors chafing at the bit to give him a hard time. Thinking of trading up or do you have some kind of envy or agenda?
Macca has a well documented history of relentlessly (understatement) pissing off many on the F16 forum. What goes around, comes around I guess. Nacra should take note that if anyone else was delivering the message, there probably would not be the animosity as a result of Macca alienating so many.


Kris Hathaway
Re: See the F20c in person [Re: macca] #221882
10/18/10 11:31 AM
10/18/10 11:31 AM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 395
LA
Acat230 Offline
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Acat230  Offline
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Posts: 395
LA
Many in the A-Class believe most of our boats in the future will either have curved daggerboards or straight boards that have canted trunks within the hulls (like the Flyer II). A straight board in a canted trunk produces a lift component similar to a curved board. Then there is a fast boat like the A3 with straight boards and non-canted trunks.

Curved boards are not necessarily faster, they just allow you to continue to push the boat in conditions where you might be backing off with straight boards. In light air, straight boards are probably better.

Any manufacturer would be wise to not overhype (the new DNA A-Class builder has a promising boat but is big on marketing spin). The curved boards are sexy and cool looking but if not executed properly, could be slower. There is no Nacra F-20C with straight boards or straight canted boards to compare to my knowledge. The only curved boards at the LAC were on the ill fated Aethon and while they felt there was an edge in breeze, they were not sure if they would have the same pace in lighter air.

Fun stuff.

Re: See the F20c in person [Re: Kris Hathaway] #221883
10/18/10 11:33 AM
10/18/10 11:33 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,382
Essex, UK
Jalani Offline
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Jalani  Offline
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Posts: 1,382
Essex, UK
Catsailing Anarchy anyone? grin

Mike, Dave, macca - cool boat, deserves to be BOTY. It's a shame that this thread has degenerated. As Kris said, it's probably a direct result of previous posts by macca elsewhere. Personally, I'd just like us all to pull in the same direction for the benefit of catsailing and not piss on each others choices of boat. There are a lot of monoslug sailors out there to convert!

Last edited by Jalani; 10/18/10 11:39 AM.

John Alani
___________
Stealth F16s GBR527 and GBR538
Re: See the F20c in person [Re: Jalani] #221888
10/18/10 12:24 PM
10/18/10 12:24 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 712
mikekrantz Offline OP
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Posts: 712
Here's some pics that Walter Cooper took last Wed. I'm sure some of these will make into print at Sailing World.

http://www.printroom.com/ViewGallery.asp?userid=wcphoto&gallery_id=2302735

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