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Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: macca] #222553
10/25/10 02:39 PM
10/25/10 02:39 PM
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pgp Offline
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Fair enough.


Pete Pollard
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'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

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Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: Wouter] #222557
10/25/10 02:45 PM
10/25/10 02:45 PM
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France
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I'm with Macca on that one. I get the gist of his argument and I agree with him.

Mixed is not good for the IOC. Some countries just reject mixed sports. Don't get me started on that. So the IOC is not going to be happy with another mixed sport. Heck mixed was one of the reasons the Tornado was pushed out!

Open doesn't work either. I'm sorry but how many women participated in the "Open" tornado olympics? Forget it.

Olympics are sexists. As such multihulls need two events.

Note that I haven't mentioned anything about equipment yet.




So here you go, my ideal sailing olympics (10 events, one can dream):

Men single hander: RS600 foiler (trapeze + foils)
Women single hander: Flying Moth
Men double hander: 49er
Women double hander: Viper or similar cat
Men team event: X40 or AC 45. One nationality per boat.
Women team event: Match racing in 4knots **** box but with mandatory bikinis in team colors.
Men boards: Anything that sink if not moving
Women boards: Idem
Men kite: Freestyle
Women kite: freestyle


All boats one design and provided. Bring it on!

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: Karl_Brogger] #222560
10/25/10 02:52 PM
10/25/10 02:52 PM
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Australia
macca Offline
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Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Why not so perfect for a mixed team? Weights?


Weight is same for boys and girls, its just that its hard to find a mixed crew at 120kg..


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Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: John Williams] #222561
10/25/10 03:00 PM
10/25/10 03:00 PM
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Mark Schneider Offline
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John

I take the IOC at their word. 10 events. equal males and females. Visually exciting and viewer friendly. This proposal does not deliver the goods to IOC.

There are many ways to balance the male/female ratio. Two mixed events is a CRAP solution that works for ISAF but probably won't appeal to the IOC. They are on record as not liking mixed events.

The IOC does not care what boats are used... they want visually exciting and viewer friendly.... They also demand events which are the pinnacle of the sport. They never had reason to question this before... now they do. I DEFY YOU to point to a major World or National championship that is required to be mixed. The IOC will see through this mixed proposal BS as more ISAF politics that fails to deliver events that the IOC will pay for. They are NOT going to fund a Country Club Social Sport mixed doubles sailing.......
That's my opinion (and I agree with the IOC on this one)


ISAF said 5 and 5.... the MNA's come back with this bastard proposal to play the same game as the last time with modifications. They are each trying to preserve their competitive angle. The MNA's COULD have balanced genders in this proposal... men's Catamaran... women's 470's..... BUT... they opted for mixed in both for purely political reasons. ISAF political groups might not like OPEN because they read men... BUT THIS ISSUE can be managed with the choice of equipment. Moreover, the women's group thew skiffs and multihulls and the 5th event under the bus last time so that they could get match racing. I question their upset with Open events.

The MNA's are playing the boat and event game... The Olympic class's are playing the boat and event game. The Women's committee is playing the boat and event game. The multihull contingent played poker thinking they had a weak hand....and HAD to take the mixed option to get a multi into the mix.
(I would have walked at that point... you can't compromise the core value of Olympic Sailing... which is ... “this is the pinnacle of the sport”) An event without integrity is a non event. Will mixed multihull sailing be viewed as the peak of the sport???

BUT THEN THE GODS SMILED ON US.... THE AC opted for Multihulls. This is a game changer. IMO, this should have stiffened the spine of the multihhull contingent and we should have LOUDLY walked.... Let ISAF try to get their money from the IOC without a multihull in the face of the huge marketing efforts that will be coming from the AC operation.

I would not be surprised if the IOC drops sailing.... and ISAF and the MNA's will completely own this outcome.

Your mileage may vary... I hope I am wrong.

Last edited by Mark Schneider; 10/25/10 03:03 PM.

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Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: Mark Schneider] #222562
10/25/10 03:05 PM
10/25/10 03:05 PM
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Australia
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Well said Mark.


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Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: John Williams] #222563
10/25/10 03:14 PM
10/25/10 03:14 PM
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South Carolina
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Originally Posted by John Williams
But Matt, you know that I have no Olympic aspirations and further I am quite capable of disconnecting my personal preferences from the issue. I wish everyone could.

I have seen every 120kg team regret their decision to go light on every 16-foot spin boat except the Hobie 16. First to de-power loses. It takes 140-150kg to make the high-aspect and grunty main/spin combo work.


I distinctly recall that Tradewinds several years ago when you and I sailed together at the weight where we could legally run either the big or small sails on the F18. I lobbied for the big sails thinking we could man-it-up. I have no doubt that we would have fared better with the small jib and spin that weekend. The weight issue is usually made a bigger deal than it truly is on any platform and I see examples of it all the time when racing A-cats....a boat that should be more weight sensitive than any others - but isn't.


Jake Kohl
Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: Mark Schneider] #222566
10/25/10 03:21 PM
10/25/10 03:21 PM
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Am I the only one who thinks mixed sports have a place in the Olympics? Don't they have mixed ice skating? I don't see that as making them "lesser" events.

EDIT: Jake, you're right, except on H14 and H16. Those boats have a pretty narrow weight range to be at the pinnacle (unless you're Carleton Tucker, I suppose).

Mike

Last edited by brucat; 10/25/10 03:24 PM.
Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: brucat] #222568
10/25/10 03:46 PM
10/25/10 03:46 PM
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Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline OP
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Mark, you have some inaccuracies in there. First, IOC has said "mixed" AND said "not mixed." Find for me what they really want this time. Second, ISAF has never said 5/5 - those proposals never got a vote, were deferred, and almost every one of them withdrawn.

Why is a mixed team on some high-performance boat yet to be determined NOT the pinnacle of the beach cat niche?


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: John Williams] #222572
10/25/10 04:01 PM
10/25/10 04:01 PM
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Australia
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John, The fact is this: there is a greater percentage of mixed dinghy sailing taking place than there is mixed multihull. So why not have the same % of representation at the games?



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Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: macca] #222573
10/25/10 04:02 PM
10/25/10 04:02 PM
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Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline OP
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Exactly why two gender-specific multihull events are impossible to achieve.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: John Williams] #222574
10/25/10 04:09 PM
10/25/10 04:09 PM
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Australia
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Ok, so how about a mixed dinghy event?

Most keel boat racing even at top level has mixed participation, so lets do that too.

The reality is that there is not one example of forced mixed participation classes in the real world, so how does forcing such a situation for the Olympics represent the actuality of the multihull sailing or any other class for that matter?


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Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: John Williams] #222576
10/25/10 04:15 PM
10/25/10 04:15 PM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Quote
Why is a mixed team on some high-performance boat yet to be determined NOT the pinnacle of the beach cat niche?


Answer: Because we have NO World championships that mandate MIXED. Our current pinnacle are OPEN WORLDS... pick your class.

Singing Kumbaya and inventing a new Mount Olympus called MiXED MULTIHULL RACING is a new one that ONLY ISAF believes they can sell to the IOC.

ISAF and votes.... err... right... the back room works it's magic again. 5 and 5 was the ideal initial proposal. Everyone recognized that women's multihull had no constituency so that would be a problem. (I know I wrote about the problem at the time). BUT... Who would have thought they would come up with MIXED as a solution? As an interested bystander... I heard of mixed just a month or so ago...

Bottom line.... Booo!... (It's Halloween)



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Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: macca] #222578
10/25/10 04:23 PM
10/25/10 04:23 PM
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Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline OP
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Leaving aside that there are many reasons to have gender-specific dinghy events, if we focus instead on what is achievable, and we agree that one multihull event is probable, and you want to have men and women participate out of a gender-equity approach, then what conclusion do you come to? Open is code for "men's." There were some women in the Tornado "open" fleet, but as Devon pointed out for us, it was male dominated. What do you think the women in catamaran sailing want if there is only one event? I know quite clearly what the women in US SAILING want - when I said "open" at the table, I wasn't sure who was going to slap me first, Dawn Riley or Cory Sertl.

Haven't heard much from women catsailors today... care to chime in?


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: John Williams] #222581
10/25/10 04:30 PM
10/25/10 04:30 PM
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Australia
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John, to assume that a Mixed multihull event is suitable then you have to assume that there is at least close to 50% participation in multihull sailing, otherwise this "mixed" event is not representative of multihull sailing.

F18, Tornado, F16 etc are all "open" events and there are women competing, so that would appear to be the best representation of our "niche" as you put it.

So, there should be 50% of these posts from women, and at the F18 worlds we should have around 90 women competing..... neither of which are happening so why the kiss do we have the potential for this to be an Olympic event?

Last edited by macca; 10/25/10 04:31 PM.

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Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: macca] #222583
10/25/10 04:35 PM
10/25/10 04:35 PM
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Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline OP
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You're looking through the wrong end of the telescope, Andrew. And when was the last time you went to a Hobie 16 event?


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: John Williams] #222584
10/25/10 04:35 PM
10/25/10 04:35 PM
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Yes... but the ISAF women s committee of all women VOTED the last time AGAINST the many younger women who wanted a 5th event in 29ner skiffs.

They voted against the few women who wanted a Women's cat.

They EVEN voted against a 5th women's event.

THEY ONLY WANT A MATCH RACE Event .... I firmly believe they play the game to make sure they keep women's match race because it furthers their personal professional careers. Just my evaluation of their voting record.

My advice... tell em to show up the selection trials for OPEN MULTIHULL and make their case on equipment they can race.... Since, they are more interested in wiggling the stick at the back of a farr bazzilion for a fee... I doubt they show up.



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Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: John Williams] #222585
10/25/10 04:36 PM
10/25/10 04:36 PM
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Australia
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Originally Posted by John Williams
You're looking through the wrong end of the telescope, Andrew. And when was the last time you went to a Hobie 16 event?


I'm looking to the future of multihull sailing, not the past....


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Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: macca] #222586
10/25/10 04:39 PM
10/25/10 04:39 PM
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John Williams Offline OP
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So you're choosing to ignore the biggest one design multihull class in the world...


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: John Williams] #222587
10/25/10 04:41 PM
10/25/10 04:41 PM
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Australia
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nope, I just want to see the event/class for the Olympics to represent multihull sailing going forward rather than the past.


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Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: macca] #222588
10/25/10 04:42 PM
10/25/10 04:42 PM
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John Williams Offline OP
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Or the present. Sorry, but you just can't be selective about what classes you'll consider when trying to get your arms around what is happening in multihull sailing.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
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