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Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: F-18 5150] #222620
10/25/10 08:31 PM
10/25/10 08:31 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,117
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Originally Posted by hobie18rich
F-20 C for the Olympics.


But is it built well enough? A Tornado could and would last multiple campaigns, that's what is so great about the T. Sure you've got some cost up front, but you aren't junking a boat twice a year, (or once a year, whatever), and really its the cheapest in the long run. Maybe that matter's maybe it doesn't.

I definitely agree with Andrew about it has to be overpowered and exciting to watch, yet sailable even if it is more or less out of control.


(edit)- I never watched any of the C-Class videos until this past year's Little America's Cup. Those things are awesome to watch. To be honest, even as a catsailor, short of watching some crashes, or really gnarly conditions, this is pretty boring as a spectator. Probably more so if you have no idea what is really going on.

Last edited by Karl_Brogger; 10/25/10 08:37 PM.

I'm boatless.
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: macca] #222621
10/25/10 08:34 PM
10/25/10 08:34 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,305
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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Luiz  Offline
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Asuncion, Paraguay
Originally Posted by macca

One design
modern features
spectacular to watch (read: over powered)
quality build
longevity of components
quality, long lasting sails
availability
accessibility

If womens only: 115-130kg
If Mens only : 145-160kg
if mixed: 130-150kg

thats my point of view..


An excellent start! I'll try to improve on it:

- Smart, strict one design.
- Modern features.
- Media friendly: spectacular to watch (over powered), easy to attach cameras everywhere, etc.
- Spectator friendly: high level competition from 4 to 30 knots of wind, smart race format.
- High quality/price ratio.
- Very good longevity at Olympic level racing (8-10 years), extremely high longevity in normal racing conditions.
- Quality, long lasting, decent cost sails, with replacement frequency limits.
- Worldwide availability
- Ease of assembly/disassembly for transport (logistics are an important issue for the games).

- Weights, double handed:

If Women only: 120-140kg
If Men only : 150-190kg
If Mixed : 130-150kg

(higher weight allows for older/more experienced sailors - this is what kept the Finn as an Olympic class for decades. If they drop the Finn, maybe the heavy/experienced sailors will switch to the multihull, especially with the AC focused on cats)

- Weights, singlehanded: half of the above figures.


After looking at all this, I like the F20c for the Olympics, even if it might loose against an ARC 22.

Now, imagine if Bill Roberts decides to add lifting foils and adjusts its other features accordingly. I guess he could do that. He also has experience with foils placed forward of the main beam, that would provide the same pitchpole resistance with less vertical lift = less drag...

Ok, dream over. Anyone else will give it a try?

Cheers,

Last edited by Luiz; 10/25/10 09:00 PM.

Luiz
Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: Karl_Brogger] #222622
10/25/10 08:34 PM
10/25/10 08:34 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 894
Branford, CT
rhodysail Offline
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rhodysail  Offline
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I donít think multihull sailors should accept anything short of the 5/5 proposal. The landscape has changed drastically over the last year and the Olympics now needs multihulls more than multihulls need the Olympics.

PS: Get rid of the damn 470 and you can quote me on that.

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: macca] #222628
10/25/10 11:31 PM
10/25/10 11:31 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,303
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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Originally Posted by macca
Actually, we are discussing multihulls and the Olympics. And none of us wants to have multihull sailing represented at the Olympics by a H16..



Whoaaa there. Don't speak for me. My mind isn't made up on this but I haven't excluded the H16 from my thinking. What rings more familiar with the general population than a Hobie 16? If speed and performance were the highest achievements of Olympic sport, the Laser would never have made the cut.


Jake Kohl
Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: Jake] #222635
10/26/10 01:17 AM
10/26/10 01:17 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
Pooh-Bah
Tornado_ALIVE  Offline
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Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by TEAMVMG

Out of interest, part of the VMG team are currently in the middle East training with a Muslim national multihull squad that will be major players in world sailing very soon and what I say is true and should not be overlooked.


While that may be true, it opens a ginormous can of worms to put it on the table...the suggestion to consider this aspect of a mixed class proposal is to asking the ISAF and the Olympics to support the oppression of women. That will be a hard sell.


Or should ISAF support the discrimination of peopleís religious beliefs. Your view on this matter (which I share) is in line with the majority of the Western World's view. However in my country it is also illegal to discriminate against someoneís religious belief. Can of worms goes both ways. ISAF could just as easily avoid it by deciding that Mixed is not in line with general Multihull sailing.

As for equipment, I agree. Get the Multihull over the line as either Menís and Womanís or Open. Not just a menís event and not mixed if you can help it. Then worry about equipment. If it is the H16 then it is better than nothing, however would prefer to see the T or F20c.


Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: Mark Schneider] #222637
10/26/10 01:31 AM
10/26/10 01:31 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
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Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
John

I take the IOC at their word. 10 events. equal males and females. Visually exciting and viewer friendly. This proposal does not deliver the goods to IOC.

There are many ways to balance the male/female ratio. Two mixed events is a CRAP solution that works for ISAF but probably won't appeal to the IOC. They are on record as not liking mixed events.

The IOC does not care what boats are used... they want visually exciting and viewer friendly.... They also demand events which are the pinnacle of the sport. They never had reason to question this before... now they do. I DEFY YOU to point to a major World or National championship that is required to be mixed. The IOC will see through this mixed proposal BS as more ISAF politics that fails to deliver events that the IOC will pay for. They are NOT going to fund a Country Club Social Sport mixed doubles sailing.......
That's my opinion (and I agree with the IOC on this one)


ISAF said 5 and 5.... the MNA's come back with this bastard proposal to play the same game as the last time with modifications. They are each trying to preserve their competitive angle. The MNA's COULD have balanced genders in this proposal... men's Catamaran... women's 470's..... BUT... they opted for mixed in both for purely political reasons. ISAF political groups might not like OPEN because they read men... BUT THIS ISSUE can be managed with the choice of equipment. Moreover, the women's group thew skiffs and multihulls and the 5th event under the bus last time so that they could get match racing. I question their upset with Open events.

The MNA's are playing the boat and event game... The Olympic class's are playing the boat and event game. The Women's committee is playing the boat and event game. The multihull contingent played poker thinking they had a weak hand....and HAD to take the mixed option to get a multi into the mix.
(I would have walked at that point... you can't compromise the core value of Olympic Sailing... which is ... ďthis is the pinnacle of the sportĒ) An event without integrity is a non event. Will mixed multihull sailing be viewed as the peak of the sport???

BUT THEN THE GODS SMILED ON US.... THE AC opted for Multihulls. This is a game changer. IMO, this should have stiffened the spine of the multihhull contingent and we should have LOUDLY walked.... Let ISAF try to get their money from the IOC without a multihull in the face of the huge marketing efforts that will be coming from the AC operation.

I would not be surprised if the IOC drops sailing.... and ISAF and the MNA's will completely own this outcome.

Your mileage may vary... I hope I am wrong.


Great response. If ISAF have any spine, then perhaps they should tell the MNAís to STFU and consider what is best for sailing. I am sure every MNA would strongly support Multihulls if they had a Bundy / Ashby in their squad. This is where the decision is flawed. MNAís opinion based on their medal chances should take a flying leap.

BTW, strongly agree with Macca on the weight issue.


Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: Jake] #222638
10/26/10 01:33 AM
10/26/10 01:33 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
Pooh-Bah
Tornado_ALIVE  Offline
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Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted by Jake
[The weight issue is usually made a bigger deal than it truly is on any platform and I see examples of it all the time when racing A-cats....a boat that should be more weight sensitive than any others - but isn't.


Because the mast and sails are not OD. The rig can be tailored to someones weight.


Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #222640
10/26/10 03:10 AM
10/26/10 03:10 AM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 117
Cairns FNQ
engineer Offline
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engineer  Offline
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Cairns FNQ
I still think the H16 would be a decent choice for the Olympics, shoot me in the head if you want.
They are competitively sailed by more countries than ANY other boat, we don't even have an F20C in Australia!!!
This is the Olympics, not a tech race, More countries could send more competitors with H16 experience and have a genuine shot of coming back with a medal, They do require skill to keep them upright in a decent blow, and you can sail them in a decent blow.
What is so wrong about that? Who cares if they aren't the fastest boat around.... they use lasers in the olympics, and they get heaps of competitors, don't they????
Don't get me wrong, I love the T, and the F20C, but for a truely international representation of cat sailors with good racing skills (mixed, open...... whatever) I think the H16 hits the target.
We have all sailed a H16 at some point in our lives after all.......
(Chocko hides under desk)


Nacra 430 Rocket
Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: macca] #222643
10/26/10 03:34 AM
10/26/10 03:34 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
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North-West Europe
Quote

There is one already, and very successful at that.

Won class at Carnac etc.

Only 119kg though

Oh, and its 2 girls so therefore not eligible for the mixed multihull event



Yep, but Liz and Carolijn are on record (several times already) stating that they feel "light" on the (overweight = + 20 kg) Viper and are fighting in the breezes. They wished that they had a little more lard on the wire. Scores of sailors, as John says, have come to the same conclusion. From Matt/Gina to JC.

And that is why you are so full of it Macca.

You twist and turn everything to suit your own distorted world view and then truth has no longer anything to do with it. We all know that here and it seems high time that you yourself realize that.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 10/26/10 03:42 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: Mark Schneider] #222644
10/26/10 03:45 AM
10/26/10 03:45 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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Quote

BUT THEN THE GODS SMILED ON US.... THE AC opted for Multihulls. This is a game changer. IMO, this should have stiffened the spine of the multihhull contingent and we should have LOUDLY walked.... Let ISAF try to get their money from the IOC without a multihull in the face of the huge marketing efforts that will be coming from the AC operation.


+ 1

Play from the card that they need us more then we need them.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: Wouter] #222645
10/26/10 04:11 AM
10/26/10 04:11 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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Now I'm convinced that one of the F16 builders is making great inroads as a potential olympic class as the representatives of some well know cat-builder are doing their very best to diss this particular class in public at every chance they get !

Not long before we'll start to see claims that the F16's are best sailed by an all-child team below 12 years of age (where foiling boats and F17's are not ?). Or how these are overpriced carbon wonders (where the F20C/F17 are not ?). Not to mentioned the usual canard that the F16's has no international fleets of large numbers like the F18 (where the F20c/F17 have ?)

What a joke !

Some people apparently have a huge blind spot and are totally biased as a result.

If that is the way some particular SMOD (prototype) design must be advanced in the greater scheme of things then I really don't fancy its chances.

Personally I think the F20C is unlikely to be selected because it ticks none of these boxes and is as of yet still an unkown rarity with a relatively large potential for teething problems like the wild bull ride that Macca himself displayed in his video.

When faced with a choice between the T and the F20C I favour the chances of the first by 100 to 1

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 10/26/10 04:14 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: Wouter] #222646
10/26/10 04:21 AM
10/26/10 04:21 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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Other then that I'm with Jake and John here.

The discussion is first about the events and the main goal is to get a multihull discipline included in the big O.

While I do not favour the H16 as the equipment choice; I will support it with everything I have if that is the only option on the table. I think every multihull sailor, builder and builder representative should do the same. Failing to do so weakens our negociating hand as a community and will most likely result in disselecting the multihull from the big O.

When we have the first Multi O. event then we must continue to expand the selection to include more high performamce events hopefully cooperating with the skiff and foiling moth crowd. Force the hand of ISAF by leveraging them in any way we can.

Personally I feel that anybody engaged in "in-fighting" is part of the problem.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 10/26/10 04:23 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: Wouter] #222647
10/26/10 05:07 AM
10/26/10 05:07 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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macca  Offline
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Australia
Originally Posted by Wouter
Quote

There is one already, and very successful at that.

Won class at Carnac etc.

Only 119kg though

Oh, and its 2 girls so therefore not eligible for the mixed multihull event



Yep, but Liz and Carolijn are on record (several times already) stating that they feel "light" on the (overweight = + 20 kg) Viper and are fighting in the breezes. They wished that they had a little more lard on the wire. Scores of sailors, as John says, have come to the same conclusion. From Matt/Gina to JC.

And that is why you are so full of it Macca.

You twist and turn everything to suit your own distorted world view and then truth has no longer anything to do with it. We all know that here and it seems high time that you yourself realize that.

Wouter



Wouter, You have no idea how happy it makes me to see that you are not on my team.

You constantly display an uncanny ability to turn any discussion into an attack on a person, however unwarranted it may be.

Now, let me pull your comments apart so its clear to all concerned that you are the one thats full of it:-

in the Carnac interview, Carnac interview
It was "quite windy" but they settled in quite quickly
It was the first time Carolijn and Liz had sailed together
Liz had not sailed a small catamaran for 5-6 years
Carolijn says the boat is quite easy to handle in choppy conditions
Carolijn says she was very happy with the performance of the boat through the whole wind range.


Now, in the interview there is no mention at all of the team feeling that they are too light for the boat.

And as you so proudly pointed out at the time, they won the regatta, so I guess being 119kg is not so bad (scored1,1,1,1,2,1,3) and all this was achieved with a fresh team with no training time at all prior to the event. Now imaging how an Olympic level team would perform after countless hours training?


As for the rest of your comments relating to the F20... You need to pull your head in on that subject until you can come in here and say that you have sailed (or at least attempted to) on the boat. Claiming that the boat has teething problems and is a prototype???? WTF!! there have been more than 70 boats built since march 2010!!!. And do you think AC teams would be buying them to train on and race if it didn't meet their high standards? in 2011 there will be more F20's competing as a class than F16 have ever had at events, all this within 12 months of release....



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Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #222648
10/26/10 06:17 AM
10/26/10 06:17 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 612
Cape Town, South Africa
Steve_Kwiksilver Offline
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Steve_Kwiksilver  Offline
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Posts: 612
Cape Town, South Africa
What I see here are people arguing over what classes, and what categories (gender) should be sailed which are representative of catsailing worldwide.
If the IOC has asked that equipment be affordable and easily accessed to all participating countries, then that dictates a SMOD approach like the laser. If that is the deciding criteria then ISAF would do well to choose off-the shelf classes like Laser, H16, 49er, etc. This is not my preference, but we should put our preferences aside if we`d like sailing to stay an Olympic sport. Perhaps H16 with spinnaker is not the worst possible choice and will satisfy IOC requirements in this regard.
Macca and others who are afraid that the H16 or F16 will drive the weight down to 120-130kg are only seeing it from their own perspectives. Why does the pinnacle of sailing have to have big burly competitors ? Sailing is not weight-lifting - countries who do well at table-tennis (ie small-built eastern people)may become the new Olympic sailing heroes. It has happened in windsurfing already.
If countries with bigger people on average want to compete then maybe they have to change their perspectives, and send teenagers or mixed crews to meet the desired weight targets. Teenagers such as those who won the F16 Europeans would be well-suited to the "new" Olympic sailing criteria, which is a good way to keep sailing in the Olympics - you don`t see 45year old gymnasts in most Olympic sports, so why do we keep them in sailing ? This is part of the reason sailing has no appeal to the viewing public.
If heavyweights want to compete then they will have to choose women or teenage crewmembers.
SO perhaps the 2-person boat selection should cater for a lightweight crew, which will in itself dictate that it be open to men, women and youth, with no false rules dictating that mixed crews are a requirement. This will happen as a result of the boat choice.
There is a reason the F16 & H16 have more mixed and teenage crews than the F18 - the ideal crew weight for the F18 does not promote mixed crews, and teenage crews must carry weights, and become uncompetitive in strong breeze. So choosing an 18-20ft boat dictates that an all-male crew is preferred. In my head this would not be an ideal situation for ISAF to present to IOC.

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: Steve_Kwiksilver] #222649
10/26/10 07:02 AM
10/26/10 07:02 AM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 110
D
Devon Offline
member
Devon  Offline
member
D
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 110
ok lets sort some things out
The IOC will end olympic sailing if bla bla bla and amongst the failing yes thats right failing fleet is the laser, the most common sailed boat just like the hobie 16, are you guys getting this. Even the laser isnt doing for sailing what the ioc need to continue keeping events, so please stop saying just because the hobie is the most common, means that it will appeal the public, because the laser isnt! The laser is on the same IOC condemmed list with the rest of the ISAF IOC current boats.
Next... John you could not be more wrong in regard to stating that you must first get an event then choose a weapon, you dont buy a plane ticket with out knowing where you are going do u? By narrowing down the parameters by not allowing the possibilitie to choose open or mixed etc is plane foolish, definately by making the event mixed will restrict what type of cat we can put forward, instead shouldnt we first choose a vessel that will meet what the IOC are warning us we have to have, it wont be the event eg mixed which will spurr on the spectators it will be the vessel. Once the correct type of cat has been chosen, one that will draw spectators, then marry a crew to it, not before. The T association recently did just like what the x40`s did and sailed in close right next to the crowds, imagine the carbon20 Nacra doing the same, up close, big, fast, and able to show off infront of the crowd doing wheelies etc, or inagine a 16 footer trying this,just wouldnt have the same WOW factor so lets first choose a vessel that the public would prefer and worry about who or what sex gets to sail it last.. Tell me this, if you watch weightlifting in the olympics, whats the main event womens or mens, that is what the IOC are saying! give the general public a main event! Not what you find on the beach for hire..

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: Steve_Kwiksilver] #222650
10/26/10 07:07 AM
10/26/10 07:07 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,303
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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What do the x-Olympic Tornado sailors think?


Jake Kohl
Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: macca] #222651
10/26/10 07:08 AM
10/26/10 07:08 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
old hand
Stewart  Offline
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Posts: 953
Western Australia
The issue maybe the better sailors are fitter (thus lighter) than the average sailor of same height.

Hypothetical question.. Say an "A" subclass was selected.. How many kgs do you consider the guys would drop at the pointy end of the fleet? Think Ashbey would need to lose 10Kg to go for gold?

Last edited by Stewart; 10/26/10 07:17 AM.
Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: Jake] #222652
10/26/10 07:16 AM
10/26/10 07:16 AM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 110
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Devon Offline
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Devon  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 110
They know that they are now no longer the fastest and most spectacular 20 footers in the water, their time has passed, I am an ex T club sailer, not olympic, but i felt for a young lad that trained every day so hard for years to aspire to sail his fathers tornado in the olympics only to have all his dreams wiped. The ISAF have a lot of ground to make up and are thus far failing to do so!!!

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: macca] #222656
10/26/10 07:27 AM
10/26/10 07:27 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
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pgp  Offline
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Posts: 5,525
Macca I took your example of Carnac at face value but imo, it doesn't hold up as proof of very much. We knew the ladies in question were good sailors before the event took place.

"so I guess being 119kg is not so bad (scored1,1,1,1,2,1,3)" No disresect to any of the participants but it doesn't sound like a very strong fleet. JC and Dalton beat me, last weekend, by quite a large margin but that doesn't make them world champions or even speak to their (considerable) prowess.

Did any team ever win the Olympics by such a margin, on Torando or any other boat?

Let's consider how "a fresh team with no training time at all prior to the event" would fare against an Olympic fleet. I'm guessing their score would be considerably less impressive than the one posted above.

"Now imaging how an Olympic level team would perform after countless hours training?"

Why? Against whom? A fleet of club racers? What would the result prove? Do you expect that these ladies would repeat their Carnac score against an Olympic fleet?

I think a result must be repeatable in order to be varified as fact. For me to accept your 120 kg premise you'll need to present more results.




Last edited by pgp; 10/26/10 07:31 AM.

Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: pgp] #222657
10/26/10 07:38 AM
10/26/10 07:38 AM
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Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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macca  Offline
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Australia
Eurocat results

Not exactly muppets behind them..


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