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Re: 2011 US Multihull Championship for the Hobie Alter Cup [Re: Jake] #233957
06/22/11 11:03 PM
06/22/11 11:03 PM
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PTP Offline
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165

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: 2011 US Multihull Championship for the Hobie Alter Cup [Re: PTP] #233970
06/23/11 09:00 AM
06/23/11 09:00 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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317-342 depending on whether I weigh myself in the morning or evening.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: 2011 US Multihull Championship for the Hobie Alter Cup [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #233973
06/23/11 09:18 AM
06/23/11 09:18 AM
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pgp Offline
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laugh 235, give or take..

Of course, we really can't draw any conclusions unless we hear from the top ten.


Last edited by pgp; 06/23/11 09:20 AM.

Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: 2011 US Multihull Championship for the Hobie Alter Cup [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #233974
06/23/11 09:42 AM
06/23/11 09:42 AM
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Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
317-342 depending on whether I weigh myself in the morning or evening.


What is that...in oz?


Jake Kohl
Re: 2011 US Multihull Championship for the Hobie Alter Cup [Re: pgp] #233975
06/23/11 09:45 AM
06/23/11 09:45 AM
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MERRITTISLAND, FL
Matt M Offline
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Originally Posted by pgp
laugh 235, give or take..

Of course, we really can't draw any conclusions unless we hear from the top ten.



This horse is dead already.

No conclusions are going to come from this no matter how much “data” is dug up. If there are 20 minute races, no amount of weight difference is going to make up for a bad start or a missed tack, so whatever result you want to slant to fit your weight politics will continue ad nausea.

Olli summed it up very well. Weight is critical- how you use it is more so and with a fat hull multi with a spin it not just “less is better” but is condition dependant. The lighter the boat with more power/weight the more obvious the difference. Light teams will have an advantage in lighter winds and flat seas, while heavy teams become advantaged as the conditions more to bigger seas and winds. (There are some trim issues with comparing uni to sloop rigged F16 – but the real problem as the wind increases is uni guys not having the weight to make the boat perform)

Earlier in this thread the Olympic issue was raised. With the Olympics they are planning and training for 1 event in 1 location. The crew weight lottery is part of that extreme commitment to gain any advantage at all cost. For everyone else who race all the time, we see a variety of conditions and in the end it all averages out.

Re: 2011 US Multihull Championship for the Hobie Alter Cup [Re: Jake] #233976
06/23/11 10:03 AM
06/23/11 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
317-342 depending on whether I weigh myself in the morning or evening.


What is that...in oz?


Kilotons.
I'm tellin' ya "I'm the next big thing".
I'm so big I make Tad look like Tinkerbelle.
I'm so big when I wear my Malcolm X shirt ,helicopters try to land on me.
I'm so big smaller me's orbit me.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: 2011 US Multihull Championship for the Hobie Alter Cup [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #233977
06/23/11 10:09 AM
06/23/11 10:09 AM
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Round is a shape.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: 2011 US Multihull Championship for the Hobie Alter Cup [Re: pgp] #233983
06/23/11 10:51 AM
06/23/11 10:51 AM
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Portland, Maine
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ThunderMuffin Offline
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Quote
I'm so big I make Tad look like Tinkerbelle.


Not where it counts!!! :P

Re: 2011 US Multihull Championship for the Hobie Alter Cup [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #233986
06/23/11 12:00 PM
06/23/11 12:00 PM
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Posts: 12,303
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
317-342 depending on whether I weigh myself in the morning or evening.


What is that...in oz?


Kilotons.
I'm tellin' ya "I'm the next big thing".
I'm so big I make Tad look like Tinkerbelle.
I'm so big when I wear my Malcolm X shirt ,helicopters try to land on me.
I'm so big smaller me's orbit me.


You're so big that you eat with a Trident.
You're so big that when you go to the movies you sit next to everybody.
You're so big you make big bird look like Tweety.


Jake Kohl
Re: 2011 US Multihull Championship for the Hobie Alter Cup [Re: ThunderMuffin] #233990
06/23/11 01:48 PM
06/23/11 01:48 PM
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Posts: 3,221
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
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Originally Posted by Undecided
Quote
I'm so big I make Tad look like Tinkerbelle.


Not where it counts!!! :P

Yeah, I'll admit you do have a bigger mouth and computer!
By the way, where's my rum? With interest you're at a Gallon and a half. Flore De Cana would be fine.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: 2011 US Multihull Championship for the Hobie Alter Cup [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #233992
06/23/11 04:11 PM
06/23/11 04:11 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
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(Engineers chime in here), I would suspect that as crew weight becomes a greater % of total platform weight, the placement of said crew weight becomes more and more critical (think skiffs and foiling moth).

In addition, weight contributes to inertia, so this would help in waves and righting moment, giving an advantage in higher wind/choppy seas somewhat.


I would also suspect that within a certain wind range (say 10kts - 18 kts), a multihull would be very competitive in a wide crew-weight range (300 - 375 lb in the case of the F18, maybe?). Outside of this wind range (really light or really heavy) you'd see some noticable performance differences.

But given these weight/windspeed constraints, I would venture that sailor skill is the dominating factor in race performance.

For me personally, I feel that the smaller the boat, the less forgiving it is to bad weight placement, sail trim, poor transition (tack/gybe) sets/douses, etc. Which is why I'm still a fan of the 20's 'cause it would make even a hack like me fast in most conditions.. smile


Jay

Re: 2011 US Multihull Championship for the Hobie Alter Cup [Re: waterbug_wpb] #233994
06/23/11 05:08 PM
06/23/11 05:08 PM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Quote
But given these weight/windspeed constraints, I would venture that sailor skill is the dominating factor in race performance.


Certainly... that is why class exists at all.... People agree that X class is an acceptably level playing field.... especially because sailing is so complex that skill, and course management are essential factors of the game. Within this weight band... its worthwhile to play even though weigh matters.

When your team weight gets outside of the band... 1) you know it...and 2) you accept the challenge and go racing. So at the rank an file level... every team makes the decision... is it fun or worth while to race if I am outside the general band. BUT...You will scream bloody murder if the RC or fleet won't go racing when the wind is up and the field tilts in your favor.... or only schedules events or shows up for events in light air venues.

Now you see how the class decides on minimum crew weights, Wind speed minimums and maximums. When you legislate the playing field by putting a min crew weight you can keep more people in the class. Never underestimate the psychology of finishing a leg behind in a light air race to some featherweights... It may only score as one place behind ... BUT... you will not do that often.. Min crew weights regulate this a bit.

The other solution is to build overpowered boats for light air regions. The original nacra f18... the Inter 18 was sold in the the US with a taller carbon stick because Nacra thought it needed more horsepower for the light air sailing regions plus min crew weight. The N20 followed that trend.... overpowered narrow boat with min crew weight.



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: 2011 US Multihull Championship for the Hobie Alter Cup [Re: waterbug_wpb] #234009
06/24/11 07:15 AM
06/24/11 07:15 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 548
MERRITTISLAND, FL
Matt M Offline
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Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
But given these weight/windspeed constraints, I would venture that sailor skill is the dominating factor in race performance.



Something that gets neglected in these discussions is skill relative to the wind as well.
When the wind is right in the easy middle range, everyone can make the boat go. There is enough power to keep things moving and enough time to make adjustments if needed. The less skilled sailors start dropping out the back of the fleet as soon as the wind becomes very light or very heavy. Reading the wind and maintaining momentum in very light stuff, or maintaining speed and control in the heavy conditions both take a lot more skill and time to master.

If you use the same techniques etc to sail the boat in heavy air as you would in light, you are going to be very slow. Same for weight; if you try to hit the same angle of attack etc, you are done and flushed out the back. The extraordinarily bad finish is not a weight issue it is still the driver. Sail the boat for the conditions, crew and wind, and you will be very competitive over a very large range of both.

Re: 2011 US Multihull Championship for the Hobie Alter Cup [Re: Matt M] #234015
06/24/11 08:45 AM
06/24/11 08:45 AM
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brucat Offline
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"Fascinating" as these past few pages have been...

...in the immortal words of the random fan in Major League, in response to the home run after his buddy was saying "Too high, too high..."

"Who gives a s...? It's gone!"

Congrats to Matt and Damon, and for all the teams that showed up and raced well, regardless of their weight!

Mike

Re: 2011 US Multihull Championship for the Hobie Alter Cup [Re: Matt M] #234020
06/24/11 09:35 AM
06/24/11 09:35 AM
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Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Great Point!
The implication is that in looking at performance factors in breeze, you really only want to look at the really accomplished racers. They have probably mastered these skills.

I want to add one more. Technique

The top A cat sailors are now working on trapping out going down wind in breeze... proving that it is faster! I don't care what you weigh... this skill is extra ordinary!
Sailing an A cat to beat these guys means that you have to match their technique irrespective of crew weight.


Next point... Fact of life... some boats are going to be more challenging to sail. Single handed trapping down wind on an F16 and going around the cans will be much harder then double handing the same boat... Sailing this boat to it's rating will be a lot harder....AND there is still a weight factor in the performance. Bottom line... it's a complex game. Great fun!

Final thought... we always have the option of dropping 15 to 20 lbs to drop into your favorite boats weight band.




crac.sailregattas.com
Re: 2011 US Multihull Championship for the Hobie Alter Cup [Re: Mark Schneider] #234048
06/25/11 01:01 PM
06/25/11 01:01 PM
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Northfield Mn
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Random thought:

We have minimum weight restrictions, why don't we have regulations on height? I'm starting to think it is completely unfair for the height impaired to be racing against tall people, (especially the tall stringy phuckers) and I really think we need to come up with a number, (probably the absolute shortest recorded adult height), and use that for the max height, anyone else should NOT be allowed to compete. In the interest of creating a level playing field where it is truly about the sailors skill, and not about his or her physical attributes I see this as another hurdle that must be taken into account.


I'm boatless.
Re: 2011 US Multihull Championship for the Hobie Alter Cup [Re: Karl_Brogger] #234050
06/25/11 02:39 PM
06/25/11 02:39 PM
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
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Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Random thought:

We have minimum weight restrictions, why don't we have regulations on height? I'm starting to think it is completely unfair for the height impaired to be racing against tall people, (especially the tall stringy phuckers) and I really think we need to come up with a number, (probably the absolute shortest recorded adult height), and use that for the max height, anyone else should NOT be allowed to compete. In the interest of creating a level playing field where it is truly about the sailors skill, and not about his or her physical attributes I see this as another hurdle that must be taken into account.



You a phunny tall stringy phucker.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: 2011 US Multihull Championship for the Hobie Alter Cup [Re: Karl_Brogger] #234059
06/26/11 06:41 AM
06/26/11 06:41 AM
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waynemarlow Offline
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Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Random thought:

We have minimum weight restrictions, why don't we have regulations on height? I'm starting to think it is completely unfair for the height impaired to be racing against tall people, (especially the tall stringy phuckers) and I really think we need to come up with a number, (probably the absolute shortest recorded adult height), and use that for the max height, anyone else should NOT be allowed to compete.


OK technically I agree but they should be allowed to compete on purely PC grounds and " human rights " laywers would have a field day.

What about the Pamela Andersons of the world, how we goner deal with them ?

Re: 2011 US Multihull Championship for the Hobie Alter Cup [Re: waynemarlow] #234079
06/27/11 08:45 AM
06/27/11 08:45 AM
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Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
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I thought the boom took care of the aforementioned freakishly tall noodles.

Oh, and the jumble of lines on the trampoline should serve as Spidey-web to wrap up those guys.

Speaking of noodles, I'd bet a cheap swim noodle wrapped around the boom could save quite a few bell-ringers...


Jay

Re: 2011 US Multihull Championship for the Hobie Alter Cup [Re: waterbug_wpb] #234190
06/29/11 12:59 AM
06/29/11 12:59 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 1
Cote d'Azur, France
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FXOne186 Offline
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Cote d'Azur, France
Hi all,

Now for something completely different ... Does anyone know whether the boats of the Viper fleet used in the Alter Cup will be up for sale second hand ?

Who would be managing such a sale ?

Thx for any tips & BR


________
Guilhem

"si tu choques, t'es un lache !"
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