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Big Guys and Wave Racing #234067
06/26/11 06:56 PM
06/26/11 06:56 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 41
Ottawa, Canada
BigWhoop Offline OP
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BigWhoop  Offline OP
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Posts: 41
Ottawa, Canada
I've just had two very discouraging days of sailing on the Wave. I have lots of experience racing most of the Hobie's and I would be quick to tell you that I'm good at it. In all six races I sailed in I started alongside or maybe a boat length behind everybody else. By the top mark I was 50 yards back, by the bottom mark 150 yards back, by the finish maybe 300 or 400 yards back from the pack. I'm 6'1" and weigh about 280 pounds, but these guys are all over 200 pounds I'd say. It feels to me like I need a tiller extension to move forward in the boat. When I raced a 17 or an 18 in light air I'd be forward of the front cross member. Downwind today I was getting the boat going in the right direction and then sliding forward to the cross member. Then when the boat was a little off course I'd go back and straighten it out and then go forward again. That way I'm half a touch faster but I wasn't catching anybody. I've got a Windy-tech sail off of Ebay and a Whirlwind and the results seem identical with either one. Anybody got any ideas before I start petitioning the IWCA to allow the tiller extension?

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Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: BigWhoop] #234078
06/27/11 08:13 AM
06/27/11 08:13 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 342
Indianapolis, IN - Midwest USA...
IndyWave Offline
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IndyWave  Offline
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Indianapolis, IN - Midwest USA...
I put a tiller extension on mine, but I remove it when racing with IWCA. Locals don't know the difference.

A class-legal manueuver is to tie the bitter end of the mainsheet to a corner of the tiller crossbar, and tug to steer.

What most folks do when racing downwind is to simply lie face-down on the tramp (head foreward) and steer with your toes. There are lots of photos on this site of IWCA racers employing this technique.


What - Me Worry?


2006 Hobie Wave 7358
"Ish Kabibble"
Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: BigWhoop] #234133
06/28/11 06:02 AM
06/28/11 06:02 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 890
Dunedin Causeway, FL
David Parker Offline
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David Parker  Offline
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Posts: 890
Dunedin Causeway, FL
I don't know if this is class legal but here is what I've been doing.

I have a long bungie hooked in my center lacing for storage. I hook it on the lacing forward of the tiller crossbar and take a full turn or two around the bar, then stretch it as far forward as it can go and hook it again to the lacing. Now I can lie WAY forward and steer either way by pressing sideways on the bungie with my foot. This works in light air only, of course. It is really nice downwind as the extra turn hold it quite steady and I only need occasional tweaks to hold a steady course. Gives me time to find and open a beer!

Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: David Parker] #234135
06/28/11 07:43 AM
06/28/11 07:43 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 342
Indianapolis, IN - Midwest USA...
IndyWave Offline
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IndyWave  Offline
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Indianapolis, IN - Midwest USA...
I like this idea!

Class-legal or not, I'll have a bungee on mine tonight.


What - Me Worry?


2006 Hobie Wave 7358
"Ish Kabibble"
Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: IndyWave] #234175
06/28/11 03:40 PM
06/28/11 03:40 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
mmiller Offline
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mmiller  Offline
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Posts: 1,252
California
Just don't fall off! smile


Hobie Cat Forums
Matt Miller
Hobie Cat Company
Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: IndyWave] #234211
06/29/11 02:40 PM
06/29/11 02:40 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline

Carpal Tunnel
RickWhite  Offline

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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
Tiller extensions are not allowed and for a very good reason. Nor are any lines, bungees, or the like. You have to steer with your hands, feet or whatever other body part you feel will work. Hummm, that leaves a lot to the imagination.
After 14 years of racing them we have all concluded that lighter sailors are faster off the wind. But, once we found that the taller, heavier people could get further forward than the little people, they did not gain as much distance. If they had extensions, you would automatically lose all bigger sailors in the class.
There may be many other factors to your problems. Several of us tried Whirlwind and made suggestions to Chip to get them faster, but he didn’t particularly want to work with to get them faster. For your weight you will need a fuller sail than your smaller competitors. At this point the best sailmakers are Calvert (sold on this site) and Bossset North Sails (NJ somewhere). I am playing with a Dacron Calvert that is very full – I was 235, but now down to 192.
Next there is the rigging. The hot setup is to use a 10 hole adjuster on the forestay and have slack sidestays. Mine were so slack I took the adjusters off and just use shackles.
As you found out weight distribution is paramount.


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: RickWhite] #234219
06/30/11 07:05 AM
06/30/11 07:05 AM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 41
Ottawa, Canada
BigWhoop Offline OP
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BigWhoop  Offline OP
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Posts: 41
Ottawa, Canada
Thanks, Rick. I read somewhere, a back issue of the print edition I think, about techniques for us bigger guys to keep up. I was hoping for a magic bullet. It was up to 25 knots last night and it was a hoot! What a great boat! But, unfortunately for me, I still have a similar speed disadvantage. 50 yards at A, 300 or 400 at the finish. I'm using the 10 hole adjuster and really sloppy, hand can turn at least 45 degrees, stays. I don't believe that a $1000 sail is going to be 400 yards faster.

Discouraged.

Except for the fun of sailing the boat in that much breeze.

Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: BigWhoop] #234220
06/30/11 07:27 AM
06/30/11 07:27 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline

Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
The Dacron Calvert sail is priced pretty fairly at $588 and is definitely faster than Whirlwind. Here is the link:
https://store.catsailor.com/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=30719&idcategory=257

As I said the one I have is full, so I max out the downhaul and sheet really hard, hooking up the sheet as far forward as I can go, and that flattens it out pretty well. In light air, just ease it off.
Rick


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: RickWhite] #234223
06/30/11 09:21 AM
06/30/11 09:21 AM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 61
Albenarle NC
J
jackbr549 Offline
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jackbr549  Offline
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J

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 61
Albenarle NC
Buy the best sail you can get and then learn how to use it, never cut back on the sail.

Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: jackbr549] #234351
07/04/11 07:52 PM
07/04/11 07:52 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 41
Ottawa, Canada
BigWhoop Offline OP
newbie
BigWhoop  Offline OP
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 41
Ottawa, Canada
So that's it ... steer with your toes? Hard on my creaky old neck or hard on my creaky old knees. But I guess that's the price you pay for having fun. And I do enjoy sailing and racing this boat.

Thanks

Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: BigWhoop] #234356
07/04/11 10:58 PM
07/04/11 10:58 PM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 61
Albenarle NC
J
jackbr549 Offline
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jackbr549  Offline
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Posts: 61
Albenarle NC
Make sure the mast takes the slack out of the sidestays. I can't get my boat going with too much rake like the other sailor do. Get the boat to go on all points of sail if you have to give up somewhere.
Good Luck

Last edited by jackbr549; 07/04/11 10:59 PM.
Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: jackbr549] #234393
07/05/11 12:15 PM
07/05/11 12:15 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 41
Ottawa, Canada
BigWhoop Offline OP
newbie
BigWhoop  Offline OP
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 41
Ottawa, Canada
I didn't understand about the sidestays. However I've started trying moving the mast forward as you suggested. When I raced a 17 I had to have a lot less rake than the guys who were down to minimum weight. That was quicker downwind, and alas, slower upwind.

Appreciate the good luck. Thanks.

PS Most importantly my granddaughter loves the boat! The water splashes up through the centre of the trampoline.

Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: BigWhoop] #234441
07/06/11 07:32 AM
07/06/11 07:32 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline

Carpal Tunnel
RickWhite  Offline

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Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
The reason for raking the mast aft is to put the center of sail effort more toward the rudders, thus making them the daggerboards.
Rick


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: RickWhite] #234445
07/06/11 08:07 AM
07/06/11 08:07 AM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 41
Ottawa, Canada
BigWhoop Offline OP
newbie
BigWhoop  Offline OP
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 41
Ottawa, Canada
Well, Rick, I've cleverly arranged for my boat to be deeper in the water, by a 1/2 " or so, to provide more resistance to leeway. So I should need to rely less on the rudders, right?

You know I could do some math, each hull is about 10.25 sq. ft. in area. Mine displaces about 100 pounds more water than yours, or 1.5 cubic feet, so I push the boat .14 inches deeper in the water. Call it an 1/8". Wait ... there's two hulls. So now we'll call it 1/16". Crap. It's hard for me to imagine that little bit of extra wetted surface makes any difference at all. Unless there's something I'm missing. I should quit whining and learn to sail.

Crap. Nut on the end of the tiller again.

Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: BigWhoop] #234448
07/06/11 09:39 AM
07/06/11 09:39 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 921
Alachua, FL
Mugrace72 Offline
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Mugrace72  Offline
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Alachua, FL
BW,

It sounds like you have a fleet. Y'all ought to come down to the Put-In-Bay Bay Week Regatta. We will have nearly 30 Waves.

August 5-8.

We can argue with Rick about tiller extensions.

I think we should have a minimum crew weight of 150# and anyone over 180# can have a tiller extension. That is just my opinion.



Jack Woehrle
Hobie Wave #100, Tiger Shark III
HCA-NA 5022-1
USSailing 654799E
Alachua FL/Put-In-Bay
Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: Mugrace72] #234454
07/06/11 10:17 AM
07/06/11 10:17 AM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 61
Albenarle NC
J
jackbr549 Offline
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jackbr549  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 61
Albenarle NC
Check out the F18 YouTube on boat balance at the top of the page. Jack has a good idea. Come down to PIB and try out some other sails and see if your better. I'm sure you can If you get there a day or so early.

Last edited by jackbr549; 07/06/11 12:52 PM.
Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: jackbr549] #234475
07/06/11 03:41 PM
07/06/11 03:41 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 41
Ottawa, Canada
BigWhoop Offline OP
newbie
BigWhoop  Offline OP
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 41
Ottawa, Canada
The chance to race against 30 Waves and argue with Rick in the same place? Well that sounds like fun.

When other classes want to make rule changes they sometimes allow an "experimental" use of ... whatever. Then everybody gets some experience with how well it works or doesn't. Then they can implement the rule or not, and the guys that went ahead and took the risk have to take it off. At lesat they know up front what might happen.

Google maps says Put-In-Bay is on an island. Is that where the regatta is?

Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: BigWhoop] #234495
07/07/11 12:31 AM
07/07/11 12:31 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 425
Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
Mike Fahle Offline
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Mike Fahle  Offline
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Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
First, do as Rick has suggested. Second, you can transfer your weight forward off the wind and still steer with your hands - you can lie down with your feet forward as easily as the other way around. Third, if you can get to P-I-B this summer, you will definitely learn a lot. Fourth, weight always makes a difference - pushing more than an extra cubic foot of water out of the way every boat length simply requires more energy. Laws of physics don't change for sailboat races. Finally, consider doing yourself a favor by losing some weight. Google your height/weight combo to see where the recommendation lies. It could be the best result that your sailboat racing ever produces! I would always welcome luck but more important is knowledge and preparation. Ever notice how lucky the best prepared people are? You can do it!!

Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: Mike Fahle] #234555
07/08/11 09:22 AM
07/08/11 09:22 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline

Carpal Tunnel
RickWhite  Offline

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Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
Your a tough-love coach, Mike!

Right on, Put in Bay is located on South Bass Island, probably the most fun island in North America. We have a strong fleet of racing sailors, including two world champs, 3 National Champs, and two North Americans. Plus for that regatta my son and daughter-in-law (she is two time national and one time NA)and he has been runner up to her most of those times.
SO, there will be a lot of talent and all are willing to share their knowledge


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: RickWhite] #234585
07/08/11 06:41 PM
07/08/11 06:41 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 425
Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
Mike Fahle Offline
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Mike Fahle  Offline
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Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
No doubt; but I stand by what I wrote. As you know, Rick, I live with a Registered Dietition, so after 35 years of marriage I have become a disciple! It is no accident that at age 57 I am within a few pounds of the recommended weight at my height. I have way too many friends and relatives with serious health issues due directly to obesity so I am no longer shy about recomendations on the topic. It is THE NUMBER ONE thing that people can do as a present to themselves! I used my Boyer Mark IV A cat as incentive to get down to its weight of 165 pounds to be able to sail it. Whatever it takes! In the meantime, BigWhoop can get a fuller sail and do the other things you advised. I hope he keeps pressing to improve and can shed some pounds in the process. As you know, the Wave is a great boat to find racers who will challenge you all the way around the course!


Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: BigWhoop] #234929
07/18/11 12:27 AM
07/18/11 12:27 AM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 4
M
mrooke Offline
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I am relatively new to sailing, have owned my Wave now for 6 weeks, and been having a blast sailing it on the weekends in Texas at Lake Buchanan and the Texas City Dike. I have seen the postings with the helpful performance recommendations on mast rake and keeping your weight forward. Obviously I am a recreational sailor gaining experience at this point, and don’t want to do anything to preclude racing in the future.

I would like to know what I should add next to my Wave to get more performance. Many of the postings from 2008 recommend improving sail shape by adding a traveller and later postings from 2011 recommend adding one of the new, fuller, high-tech sails. However, it seems to me that those already using a high-tech sail report neglible performance gains from a traveller. If so, then perhaps I should just go ahead and get a fuller high-tech sail and not waste money on a traveller.

So my question is: which option provides the highest raw performance on a Wave for a 200 lb. sailor?
a) adding a traveller to a standard Hobie sail (~$200)
b) adding a fuller high-tech sail without a traveller (e.g., Calvert dacron
sail costs ~$600)

Is it worth adding both a traveller and a fuller high-tech sail to a Wave at a later point?

Thanks for any help.

Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: mrooke] #234931
07/18/11 10:07 AM
07/18/11 10:07 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 342
Indianapolis, IN - Midwest USA...
IndyWave Offline
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IndyWave  Offline
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Posts: 342
Indianapolis, IN - Midwest USA...
The best thing you can do is save your money and go sailing!

Time on the water, getting the feel of response to changing conditions, practice tacking and mark-rounding, practice starts, etc... All those will have more dramatic effects on performance than a traveller or new sail.

Actually, "high tech" sails are legal under IWCA rules, but are not allowed in HCANA races; and travellers are not allowed in racing by either class association. So it depends on whom you plan to race against.


What - Me Worry?


2006 Hobie Wave 7358
"Ish Kabibble"
Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: IndyWave] #234951
07/19/11 02:20 PM
07/19/11 02:20 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline

Carpal Tunnel
RickWhite  Offline

Carpal Tunnel

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Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
Good advice. And a traveler will offer nothing. You would not notice any significant speed increase with a high tech sail. It would only show up when racing othere boats.
If you want a lot more speed, try the Hooter.
http://www.catsailor.com/waves/superwave_overall.html
I was able to beat most H16s and some H18s in a distance race.
Rick


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: BigWhoop] #234955
07/19/11 04:02 PM
07/19/11 04:02 PM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 20
Ottawa, Ontario
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NorthernWave Offline
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NorthernWave  Offline
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Ottawa, Ontario
Hi everyone. I'm one of the people Big Whoop races with. I'm can vouch for the fact that no-one on the Ottawa River has more cat sailing experience or knowledge of local (Voodoo) wind conditions than Big Whoop. He is dangerous man to be near at the start line. I sail with a standard Hobie mainsail and easy-lock rudders. I use a 30" tiller extension and am sure it is one of the reasons I seem to finish ahead. I (along with Big Whoop) attended Madcatter this year and managed to finish 4th (my first experience racing a Wave). My thoughts on the tiller extension are that since all future Waves will come with easy-lock rudders, if it is truly the desire to grow the number of Wave racers, something must be done to close the competitive advantage of those using the older rudder system. If nothing is done, eventually I suspect, Wave racing will become the domain of lightweight sailors with enough cash to buy competitive rudder systems and go-fast sails. So....I have a couple of of suggestions:

1) Allow easy-lock rudder users to have tiller extensions

2) Allow the use the bungee cord system I read about on this forum for easy-lock rudder users

3) Set up a handicap system for easy-lock rudder systems (I really hate this idea)

BTW Mimi, we had an *awesome* time at Madcatter and I suspect there will be at least 3 Waves from LDSC at next year's regatta.

NorthernWave


Don Thompson
Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: NorthernWave] #234995
07/20/11 11:13 AM
07/20/11 11:13 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 425
Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
Mike Fahle Offline
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Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
This is in response to the following quote: "Wave racing will become the domain of lightweight sailors with enough cash to buy competitive rudder systems and go-fast sails".

The sail has to be replaced sooner or later - sooner if you sail and practice often. So buying a new sail to race with really does not add to the cost - it may only accelerate what you would spend eventually anyway. Buying a new sail that can be made to your specifications (fuller for heavier; flatter for lighter sailor weights) also helps to even the competition and provides more owner satisfaction. The sail still has to measure in so that it is even in that regard but shaping the sail to individual needs can be a big help and is money much better spent than being forced to buy whatever sail that Hobie happens to have this year (yes, it changes a lot from year to year, based on their desires, not yours). Having a couple sails, in any case, is always a good plan since it is expensive to travel and being out of a regatta after a sail is damaged is no fun. It also allows you to use one just for racing so that it stays in good shape and having one just for fun and not worrying about kids or newbies (or even you) being rough on it.

As for the rudders, it just highlights why the IWCA exists. Hobie just made that change when and as it suited them (no owner involvement). The other reason, btw, is that it is THE ONLY Hobie Wave class association, something that seems to get easily overlooked.

Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: Mike Fahle] #235004
07/20/11 01:58 PM
07/20/11 01:58 PM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 20
Ottawa, Ontario
N
NorthernWave Offline
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NorthernWave  Offline
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Ottawa, Ontario
I appreciate what you have to say about the sails, and I will no doubt be needing a new one in the future. Calvert or North seems like the way to go.

Nevertheless, the main point I was trying to raise is that compared to the easy-lock system, older rudder systems have a substantial built-in "tiller extension". My experience is that the difference is not so important going downwind, but it is significant going upwind. Since it seems unlikely that Hobie will be going back to older rudders, I would like to see consideration given to leveling the competitive advantage enjoyed by those who use the older rudder systems. I haven't priced out a new "older system" from Hobie, but I suspect it would be prohibitively expensive for me.

Taking the long view, how likely is it that new Wave sailors will want to race in regattas if they feel their factory equipped boat puts them at a significant disadvantage?

Without IWCA Wave racing would probably not exist in any meaningful way. Is the organization flexible enough to deal with unexpected challenges provided by Hobie in order to keep growing the class?





Don Thompson
Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: NorthernWave] #235016
07/20/11 09:48 PM
07/20/11 09:48 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 425
Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
Mike Fahle Offline
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Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
I think it is. I suggest you write the rule addition / change that you want and submit it to this forum for comment. That should start the necessary conversation.

Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: Mike Fahle] #235065
07/22/11 08:59 AM
07/22/11 08:59 AM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 20
Ottawa, Ontario
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NorthernWave Offline
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NorthernWave  Offline
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Posts: 20
Ottawa, Ontario
Thanks Mike. I'll have something up within a week. My objective is not to upset the established racing community. I just want to make regatta racing more competitive for those of us with newer Waves and limited resources.


Don Thompson
Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: NorthernWave] #235068
07/22/11 09:45 AM
07/22/11 09:45 AM

X
xanderwess
Unregistered
xanderwess
Unregistered
X



What does any of this mean? "As for the rudders, it just highlights why the IWCA exists. Hobie just made that change when and as it suited them (no owner involvement). The other reason, btw, is that it is THE ONLY Hobie Wave class association, something that seems to get easily overlooked" What are you talking about? And how the hell would you know anything about how/why HCA changed their rudder policy?? No owner involvement? You know this for sure? Really?
And what does this mean: "Without IWCA Wave racing would probably not exist in any meaningful way. Is the organization flexible enough to deal with unexpected challenges provided by Hobie in order to keep growing the class?" Unexpected challenges provided by Hobie? What?
No meaningful way.......define that.

Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: ] #235070
07/22/11 10:08 AM
07/22/11 10:08 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 921
Alachua, FL
Mugrace72 Offline
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Mugrace72  Offline
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Posts: 921
Alachua, FL
I think these sideways remarks are inappropriate and devisive and am surprised that there is still ill feeling toward HCA and Hobie Cat from old guard IWCA folks.

The Wave is what it is and Hobie Cat has every right to make it any way they want to.


It is up to us, the racers to manange our class fairly, whether it be HCA or HCA-NA.

We all agree that the two different rudder systems create a problem. It makes sense to me to permit a compensating device; either an extended tiller arm or tiller extension.

In fact, Rick did give me verbal permission to extend my arms when I first got my boat, but I just bit the bullet and got the whole older system.

I think a minimum crew weight is also needed and I don't buy the reasoning that no tiller extension helps the fat guys.


Jack Woehrle
Hobie Wave #100, Tiger Shark III
HCA-NA 5022-1
USSailing 654799E
Alachua FL/Put-In-Bay
Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: Mugrace72] #235077
07/22/11 11:55 AM
07/22/11 11:55 AM

X
xanderwess
Unregistered
xanderwess
Unregistered
X



I don't buy it either.
The ezloc rudders can be updated to accomodate the EPOs (kind of a pain in the butt, but Jeremy proved it can be done) and there is nothing written anywhere that says you can't match the arm lenght to that of the original rudders.
I just don't understand the negativity toward the HCA-NA from this guy, when we've done nothing but try like hell to be as accomodating at our events (regarding equipment) as we possibly can. Even totally ignoring our written rules for the MWE events in florida. And as far as meaningful Wave sailing goes, we had 12 boats at the mini mega. NOt alot of the HCA racers (16s, 20s etc....) are very big fans of the wave so I was pretty happy to get that many.

Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: ] #235078
07/22/11 12:41 PM
07/22/11 12:41 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 921
Alachua, FL
Mugrace72 Offline
old hand
Mugrace72  Offline
old hand

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 921
Alachua, FL
Originally Posted by xanderwess

I just don't understand the negativity toward the HCA-NA from this guy, when we've done nothing but try like hell to be as accomodating at our events (regarding equipment) as we possibly can. Even totally ignoring our written rules for the MWE events in florida. And as far as meaningful Wave sailing goes, we had 12 boats at the mini mega. NOt alot of the HCA racers (16s, 20s etc....) are very big fans of the wave so I was pretty happy to get that many.


Chris,

I don't know why Mike is so negative, but he does not speak for the majority of the Wave sailors that I interact with. We are very appreciative about the way HCA-NA has reached out under your leadership.

Keep up the great job!


Jack Woehrle
Hobie Wave #100, Tiger Shark III
HCA-NA 5022-1
USSailing 654799E
Alachua FL/Put-In-Bay
Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: ] #235081
07/22/11 01:21 PM
07/22/11 01:21 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 425
Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
Mike Fahle Offline
addict
Mike Fahle  Offline
addict

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 425
Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
Well, Chris, I was not asked about the rudder change, and I am an owner. That's one way I know and the only opinion I have heard about the rudder changes are negative, as recently expressed on this forum. So let's put your resentment to my comments to the test. Do you know of any owners that Hobie consulted with before making the rudder change?

Here is another test since Chris wants to know (I feel like the damage is already done, so who cares why they did what, as Jack correctly points out, they had every right to do, no matter how owners felt about it): Anyone who was consulted by Hobie before they changed the rudders, let us hear from you on this forum.


Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: Mike Fahle] #235096
07/22/11 03:31 PM
07/22/11 03:31 PM

X
xanderwess
Unregistered
xanderwess
Unregistered
X



They (the manufacturer) took a 'pleasure' boat and made more efficient to work, use and SELL to the masses. The 'Racers' (which there are really not many of relatively speaking) had to suffer a bit, but that's just the way it goes. Next time a the factory needs to make a decision on making things easier for kids/regular joe sailors to use and see if they can make a better buck on, I'll give them your email so they can check with you first.
The 'change' we were (I thought) speaking of was the FACT that the HCA just changed the Wave Rules (HCA Wave Rules) to allow for the 'upgrade' of the std. rudder to the High Performance blade. with that, a number of owners were asked their opinion. I know this because I was the one that asked. You got a burr in your saddle buddy and I don't who put it there, but it sure as hell wasn't the HCA or me.

I love you too Jack!

Last edited by xanderwess; 07/22/11 03:35 PM.
Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: ] #235106
07/22/11 07:49 PM
07/22/11 07:49 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 921
Alachua, FL
Mugrace72 Offline
old hand
Mugrace72  Offline
old hand

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 921
Alachua, FL
Originally Posted by xanderwess
Next time a the factory needs to make a decision on making things easier for kids/regular joe sailors to use and see if they can make a better buck on, I'll give them your email so they can check with you first.


Chris,

Please forward Mike's info on to Hobie's R&R department so they can keep him in the loop on any planned product changes.

I have spoken with several other Wave racers today and none of us want Hobie to contact us about such things.

I for one want to be on the "no call" list. cool


Jack Woehrle
Hobie Wave #100, Tiger Shark III
HCA-NA 5022-1
USSailing 654799E
Alachua FL/Put-In-Bay
Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: ] #235132
07/23/11 11:15 AM
07/23/11 11:15 AM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 20
Ottawa, Ontario
N
NorthernWave Offline
stranger
NorthernWave  Offline
stranger
N

Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 20
Ottawa, Ontario
First of all, I understand why Hobie made the rudder change. It is no doubt less expensive and therefore helps keep the price of boats down and the number of boats sold up. The more Waves there are, the happier I am. The EZ LOCs function just fine and the assembly is as tough as nails.

Secondly, modifying the length of the tiller arm on an EZ LOC rudder assembly would be a violation of Rules 2 and 6.

Again, I have NO criticism of the IWCA. Without Rick White and his efforts, I stand by my assertion that Wave racing would not likely exist at its current level of activity.

BTW, I purchased my first Wave in 1999. My current Wave is a 2008 model.


Don Thompson
Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: ] #235136
07/23/11 12:53 PM
07/23/11 12:53 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 425
Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
Mike Fahle Offline
addict
Mike Fahle  Offline
addict

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 425
Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
Chris, I have neither a burr nor a saddle. I made two statements of fact that apparently upset you and Jack that caused Jack to label them as inappropiate and divisive. One was the rudder statement that you misread and that has been settled. The other one was that IWCA is the only Hobie Wave Class Association. I think that stating facts is neither divisive nor inappropriate and are not "side" issues a Jack suggested because they were made as part of a conversation discussing rudder/tiller changes made by Hobie that cause racing problems. Since I recommended a rules change proposal be submitted, both of my comments were exactly on topic. Why it has bothered you two so much is all that needs to be explained.

Apparently both of you also missed my comment where I agreed with Jack that Hobie has every right to change the Wave as they see fit so I don't expect Hobie to contact me for further changes to the Wave.

Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: Mike Fahle] #235142
07/23/11 08:33 PM
07/23/11 08:33 PM

X
xanderwess
Unregistered
xanderwess
Unregistered
X



Northern Wave: I just looked at IHCA rules and 1.2 says you can't modify the rudder assemply or rudders except for min. filing. I think that is bs and am going to pose the question to our rules people. IF the Wave has 2 rudder systems and two distinct lenghts on the arms, then they should at the very least be able to modify them so that they are equal distance (from the mast I guess) so that fatties and skinnys alike have similar advantage. I'll work on that.
Mike: If you didn't sound like you were being negative towards HCA, I wouldn't have thought to comment, but since you did sound negative, I took defense (as I always will)
We have worked pretty friggin' hard to get a some situations put together where the minute number of Wave sailor in the world can get together and get our wave on. I don't like anyone rocking that boat.

Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: ] #235201
07/25/11 05:58 PM
07/25/11 05:58 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
mmiller Offline
veteran
mmiller  Offline
veteran

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
I'd say allow a hiking stick on either version. You cannot lengthen tiller arms on an EZ Loc system. That will not work. The tiller crossbar has to be aft of the sail clew to raise the rudders.

Next... maybe dis-allow raising one rudder when sailing. Most of the difference solved. Ez Loc rudders sail pretty much the same as do aluminum systems with blades down... raising one blade is the biggest difference for racing. The difference in Ackerman effect is minimal. EZ Loc systems do not work well with one blade up. The tiller arm up/down geometry causes issues.

Last... why did we change to EZ Loc to begin with? This was not cost driven. This was to simplify raising and lowering rudders period... which was a big problem for the majority of users. This has been a HUGE success. No more heavy weather helm from an incorrectly locked down rudder, no stuck cams, no sandy plunger lubricant. It's a great system. Yes, we had to move the tiller crossbar aft and remove the Ackerman to make it work, but well worth the changes.

Lastly... we reserve the right to make changes to the Wave and Getaway as we please. No questions would be asked of racers for approval. These are our bread and butter entry level boats... these are not stuck in one design slots. They are simply meant to be fun and easy to sail. Which they certainly are.


Hobie Cat Forums
Matt Miller
Hobie Cat Company
Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: mmiller] #235203
07/25/11 07:54 PM
07/25/11 07:54 PM

X
xanderwess
Unregistered
xanderwess
Unregistered
X



I want to change my vote.
Tiller ext. is logical. I needed to have it explained to me as the only $$ effective and practical way to level the playing field.
Carry on.
cw

Last edited by xanderwess; 07/25/11 08:00 PM.
Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: ] #235764
08/05/11 02:14 PM
08/05/11 02:14 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 41
Ottawa, Canada
BigWhoop Offline OP
newbie
BigWhoop  Offline OP
newbie

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 41
Ottawa, Canada
Here I go answering my own question. I've read Rick's stuff about mast rake and 10 hole adjusters, that's what I've got. And based on past experience I moved the rudder holes forward about 1/8" and the boat is so neutral that the tiny amount of friction from the gudgeon bushings will hold everything straight. But based on far too little racing in middle range wind I was almost as fast upwind as the smaller guys and slower downwind. So I moved the mast forward three holes, like at the top of seven hole adjuster. Not much difference but maybe a touch faster downwind. Then another three holes. As of one try that's very slightly slower upwind, maybe the same speed, somebody kept running out of runway on a pin favoured line so I'm not certain. And noticeably sliding backward going downwind. After a little more experience I will probably try moving the mast forward still more. Couple more holes maybe.

So that's where I am now.

Oh, that and a tiller extension. The early discussion seemed like that was a done deal and then Rick pulled rank and started mandating status quo and other folk discussed it without trying it so ... I'm not so sure.

As of right now I've got one and it makes the boat a lot more "catamaran" like.

Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: BigWhoop] #236012
08/10/11 07:43 AM
08/10/11 07:43 AM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 41
Ottawa, Canada
BigWhoop Offline OP
newbie
BigWhoop  Offline OP
newbie

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 41
Ottawa, Canada
What are the little yellow triangles with the red exclamation strobing at the top page of this topic? There are two of them on different topics.

Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: BigWhoop] #236018
08/10/11 09:56 AM
08/10/11 09:56 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 342
Indianapolis, IN - Midwest USA...
IndyWave Offline
enthusiast
IndyWave  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 342
Indianapolis, IN - Midwest USA...
If you put your cursor on the triangles, it says the topic has more than 40 repies or 100000 views. Other forums call it a "Hot Topic." Obviously you've sparked some debate.
Good job! Thank you!


What - Me Worry?


2006 Hobie Wave 7358
"Ish Kabibble"
Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: IndyWave] #236330
08/15/11 08:00 AM
08/15/11 08:00 AM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 41
Ottawa, Canada
BigWhoop Offline OP
newbie
BigWhoop  Offline OP
newbie

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 41
Ottawa, Canada
More "Where I am Now".

Yesterday started light and then built, maybe 6 or eight knots on the ride in. I'm still at sixth hole down from the top on a ten hole adjuster. First race was mostly very light, there were barely ripples from the bow. So maybe one or two knots. I was a touch slower upwind in the light, but it was variable enough that speed differences pretty much got lost in the noise. Downwind I might have been slightly slower but I was right beside a competitor at the leeward mark so I'm competitive. I might have won the second race if the Race Committee hadn't decided to go from one to two sausages just as we were finishing. Good. The wind was a solid 4 to 6 for the third race and I was further back but still in the hunt. I'd probably have done better with more rake in that one. So that's all good.

The mast standing straighter to power the boat up and the tiller extension allowing me to get further forward definitely evens the playing field. Just so you know the other folks are using tiller extensions too. This isn't apples and oranges.

It's a lot more fun racing with the other Waves, and the Lasers, than sliding backwards and then giving up when I get 200 or 400 meters behind. Much more enjoyable than the two days I spend in the light stuff that started this thread.

Go Big Guys!

Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: BigWhoop] #236494
08/18/11 11:42 PM
08/18/11 11:42 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
I am also "too big" for my Wave, and for the life of me can't understand how a tiller extension could hurt.

Before I bought my boat, I sailed a 2011 boat at Madcatter, and all I heard going upwind was the gurgling of the rudders because the boat was so poorly balanced with my weight so far back (I was sitting as far forward as I could and still reach the tiller).

I now own a 2009 Wave, but I also bought an older boat to get the old rudder system, selling it with the EZ Locks from the new boat.

This seems silly for a class that wants to grow.

Mike

Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: brucat] #236528
08/19/11 11:57 AM
08/19/11 11:57 AM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 61
Albenarle NC
J
jackbr549 Offline
journeyman
jackbr549  Offline
journeyman
J

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 61
Albenarle NC
I'm helping a friend with learn to sail a Wave with an EZ lock rudders. The boat has lee to neutral helm with the pin in the second hole on a 7 hole adjuster. the rudders seemed hard to turn and when we looked the cross bar had one side on the top and the other on the bottom causing it to bind some. Will make the repair and try again. You can't run one rudder up with this system.

Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: jackbr549] #236535
08/19/11 02:01 PM
08/19/11 02:01 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline

Carpal Tunnel
RickWhite  Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
We had an era where many were running with one rudder up, but most of us use both all the time. We rake the mast aft to load up the rudders as daggerboards, so why pull one up? Personally, I think I have better feel of the helm with both rudders down. And without raising a rudder, you don't take a chance on the locking mechanism going the wrong way (old system)

Rick


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: RickWhite] #236542
08/19/11 03:45 PM
08/19/11 03:45 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 41
Ottawa, Canada
BigWhoop Offline OP
newbie
BigWhoop  Offline OP
newbie

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 41
Ottawa, Canada
Hey! Something that Rick and I agree on! I've been trying one rudder up downwind, I have the pre 2005 rudder system, and I feel that I steer more with one rudder. It doesn't seem to make much difference so I guess dragging two rudders through the water slightly sideways must have about the same drag as one rudder more sideways. Plus I seem to be unsmooth (word?) about the up and down thing when jibing or rounding a mark.

Your mileage may vary.

Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: BigWhoop] #237614
09/14/11 10:03 PM
09/14/11 10:03 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 41
Ottawa, Canada
BigWhoop Offline OP
newbie
BigWhoop  Offline OP
newbie

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 41
Ottawa, Canada
Even more "Where I am Now":

Two big changes: moved the mast more upright and starting using a tiller extension. I'm in the 2nd hole in the forestay, from the bottom so pretty much up and down. I haven't had a chance to sail that way when it's windy but in the light to variable it's good. And I have the tiller extension which lets me move forward when it's really light. The other guys I race against are using the tiller extension too so it's not an unfair advantage. Last time we raced in the first race there were three boats and we were within 100 feet at the bottom mark the second time. So I'm pleased. Particularly since I was in the middle on that one. In the second race I butched the A mark rounding, touched it, and did a 360 so not a good comparison. In the third one I started on port went right and was half a leg behind by the time I got to the top mark so no comparison there either.

This is all very reassuring since I seem to have competitive speed. All I need is to have the extension legitimized and to be less stupid. Then I'm set. It's more fun now.

Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: BigWhoop] #237693
09/16/11 07:58 AM
09/16/11 07:58 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline

Carpal Tunnel
RickWhite  Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
Or maybe you are learning the boat more.
Rick


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
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