| Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing
[Re: BigWhoop]
#234078 06/27/11 08:13 AM 06/27/11 08:13 AM |
Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 342 Indianapolis, IN - Midwest USA... IndyWave
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Posts: 342 Indianapolis, IN - Midwest USA... | I put a tiller extension on mine, but I remove it when racing with IWCA. Locals don't know the difference.
A class-legal manueuver is to tie the bitter end of the mainsheet to a corner of the tiller crossbar, and tug to steer.
What most folks do when racing downwind is to simply lie face-down on the tramp (head foreward) and steer with your toes. There are lots of photos on this site of IWCA racers employing this technique.
What - Me Worry?
2006 Hobie Wave 7358 "Ish Kabibble"
| | | Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing
[Re: IndyWave]
#234211 06/29/11 02:40 PM 06/29/11 02:40 PM |
Joined: Mar 2002 Posts: 3,355 Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ... RickWhite
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Posts: 3,355 Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ... | Tiller extensions are not allowed and for a very good reason. Nor are any lines, bungees, or the like. You have to steer with your hands, feet or whatever other body part you feel will work. Hummm, that leaves a lot to the imagination. After 14 years of racing them we have all concluded that lighter sailors are faster off the wind. But, once we found that the taller, heavier people could get further forward than the little people, they did not gain as much distance. If they had extensions, you would automatically lose all bigger sailors in the class. There may be many other factors to your problems. Several of us tried Whirlwind and made suggestions to Chip to get them faster, but he didn’t particularly want to work with to get them faster. For your weight you will need a fuller sail than your smaller competitors. At this point the best sailmakers are Calvert (sold on this site) and Bossset North Sails (NJ somewhere). I am playing with a Dacron Calvert that is very full – I was 235, but now down to 192. Next there is the rigging. The hot setup is to use a 10 hole adjuster on the forestay and have slack sidestays. Mine were so slack I took the adjusters off and just use shackles. As you found out weight distribution is paramount. | | | Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing
[Re: RickWhite]
#234219 06/30/11 07:05 AM 06/30/11 07:05 AM |
Joined: Jun 2006 Posts: 41 Ottawa, Canada BigWhoop OP
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Posts: 41 Ottawa, Canada | Thanks, Rick. I read somewhere, a back issue of the print edition I think, about techniques for us bigger guys to keep up. I was hoping for a magic bullet. It was up to 25 knots last night and it was a hoot! What a great boat! But, unfortunately for me, I still have a similar speed disadvantage. 50 yards at A, 300 or 400 at the finish. I'm using the 10 hole adjuster and really sloppy, hand can turn at least 45 degrees, stays. I don't believe that a $1000 sail is going to be 400 yards faster.
Discouraged.
Except for the fun of sailing the boat in that much breeze. | | | Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing
[Re: BigWhoop]
#234220 06/30/11 07:27 AM 06/30/11 07:27 AM |
Joined: Mar 2002 Posts: 3,355 Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ... RickWhite
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Posts: 3,355 Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ... | The Dacron Calvert sail is priced pretty fairly at $588 and is definitely faster than Whirlwind. Here is the link: https://store.catsailor.com/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=30719&idcategory=257As I said the one I have is full, so I max out the downhaul and sheet really hard, hooking up the sheet as far forward as I can go, and that flattens it out pretty well. In light air, just ease it off. Rick | | | Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing
[Re: BigWhoop]
#234356 07/04/11 10:58 PM 07/04/11 10:58 PM |
Joined: Feb 2007 Posts: 61 Albenarle NC jackbr549
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Posts: 61 Albenarle NC | Make sure the mast takes the slack out of the sidestays. I can't get my boat going with too much rake like the other sailor do. Get the boat to go on all points of sail if you have to give up somewhere. Good Luck
Last edited by jackbr549; 07/04/11 10:59 PM.
| | | Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing
[Re: RickWhite]
#234445 07/06/11 08:07 AM 07/06/11 08:07 AM |
Joined: Jun 2006 Posts: 41 Ottawa, Canada BigWhoop OP
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Posts: 41 Ottawa, Canada | Well, Rick, I've cleverly arranged for my boat to be deeper in the water, by a 1/2 " or so, to provide more resistance to leeway. So I should need to rely less on the rudders, right?
You know I could do some math, each hull is about 10.25 sq. ft. in area. Mine displaces about 100 pounds more water than yours, or 1.5 cubic feet, so I push the boat .14 inches deeper in the water. Call it an 1/8". Wait ... there's two hulls. So now we'll call it 1/16". Crap. It's hard for me to imagine that little bit of extra wetted surface makes any difference at all. Unless there's something I'm missing. I should quit whining and learn to sail.
Crap. Nut on the end of the tiller again. | | | Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing
[Re: BigWhoop]
#234448 07/06/11 09:39 AM 07/06/11 09:39 AM |
Joined: Apr 2008 Posts: 921 Alachua, FL Mugrace72
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Posts: 921 Alachua, FL | BW,
It sounds like you have a fleet. Y'all ought to come down to the Put-In-Bay Bay Week Regatta. We will have nearly 30 Waves.
August 5-8.
We can argue with Rick about tiller extensions.
I think we should have a minimum crew weight of 150# and anyone over 180# can have a tiller extension. That is just my opinion.
Jack Woehrle Hobie Wave #100, Tiger Shark III HCA-NA 5022-1 USSailing 654799E Alachua FL/Put-In-Bay | | | Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing
[Re: Mugrace72]
#234454 07/06/11 10:17 AM 07/06/11 10:17 AM |
Joined: Feb 2007 Posts: 61 Albenarle NC jackbr549
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Posts: 61 Albenarle NC | Check out the F18 YouTube on boat balance at the top of the page. Jack has a good idea. Come down to PIB and try out some other sails and see if your better. I'm sure you can If you get there a day or so early.
Last edited by jackbr549; 07/06/11 12:52 PM.
| | | Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing
[Re: Mike Fahle]
#234555 07/08/11 09:22 AM 07/08/11 09:22 AM |
Joined: Mar 2002 Posts: 3,355 Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ... RickWhite
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Posts: 3,355 Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ... | Your a tough-love coach, Mike!
Right on, Put in Bay is located on South Bass Island, probably the most fun island in North America. We have a strong fleet of racing sailors, including two world champs, 3 National Champs, and two North Americans. Plus for that regatta my son and daughter-in-law (she is two time national and one time NA)and he has been runner up to her most of those times. SO, there will be a lot of talent and all are willing to share their knowledge | | | Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing
[Re: mrooke]
#234931 07/18/11 10:07 AM 07/18/11 10:07 AM |
Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 342 Indianapolis, IN - Midwest USA... IndyWave
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Posts: 342 Indianapolis, IN - Midwest USA... | The best thing you can do is save your money and go sailing!
Time on the water, getting the feel of response to changing conditions, practice tacking and mark-rounding, practice starts, etc... All those will have more dramatic effects on performance than a traveller or new sail.
Actually, "high tech" sails are legal under IWCA rules, but are not allowed in HCANA races; and travellers are not allowed in racing by either class association. So it depends on whom you plan to race against.
What - Me Worry?
2006 Hobie Wave 7358 "Ish Kabibble"
| | | Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing
[Re: BigWhoop]
#234955 07/19/11 04:02 PM 07/19/11 04:02 PM |
Joined: Jul 2011 Posts: 20 Ottawa, Ontario NorthernWave
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Posts: 20 Ottawa, Ontario | Hi everyone. I'm one of the people Big Whoop races with. I'm can vouch for the fact that no-one on the Ottawa River has more cat sailing experience or knowledge of local (Voodoo) wind conditions than Big Whoop. He is dangerous man to be near at the start line. I sail with a standard Hobie mainsail and easy-lock rudders. I use a 30" tiller extension and am sure it is one of the reasons I seem to finish ahead. I (along with Big Whoop) attended Madcatter this year and managed to finish 4th (my first experience racing a Wave). My thoughts on the tiller extension are that since all future Waves will come with easy-lock rudders, if it is truly the desire to grow the number of Wave racers, something must be done to close the competitive advantage of those using the older rudder system. If nothing is done, eventually I suspect, Wave racing will become the domain of lightweight sailors with enough cash to buy competitive rudder systems and go-fast sails. So....I have a couple of of suggestions:
1) Allow easy-lock rudder users to have tiller extensions
2) Allow the use the bungee cord system I read about on this forum for easy-lock rudder users
3) Set up a handicap system for easy-lock rudder systems (I really hate this idea)
BTW Mimi, we had an *awesome* time at Madcatter and I suspect there will be at least 3 Waves from LDSC at next year's regatta.
NorthernWave
Don Thompson
| | | Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing
[Re: NorthernWave]
#234995 07/20/11 11:13 AM 07/20/11 11:13 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 425 Toledo, Ohio (western end of ... Mike Fahle
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Posts: 425 Toledo, Ohio (western end of ... | This is in response to the following quote: "Wave racing will become the domain of lightweight sailors with enough cash to buy competitive rudder systems and go-fast sails".
The sail has to be replaced sooner or later - sooner if you sail and practice often. So buying a new sail to race with really does not add to the cost - it may only accelerate what you would spend eventually anyway. Buying a new sail that can be made to your specifications (fuller for heavier; flatter for lighter sailor weights) also helps to even the competition and provides more owner satisfaction. The sail still has to measure in so that it is even in that regard but shaping the sail to individual needs can be a big help and is money much better spent than being forced to buy whatever sail that Hobie happens to have this year (yes, it changes a lot from year to year, based on their desires, not yours). Having a couple sails, in any case, is always a good plan since it is expensive to travel and being out of a regatta after a sail is damaged is no fun. It also allows you to use one just for racing so that it stays in good shape and having one just for fun and not worrying about kids or newbies (or even you) being rough on it.
As for the rudders, it just highlights why the IWCA exists. Hobie just made that change when and as it suited them (no owner involvement). The other reason, btw, is that it is THE ONLY Hobie Wave class association, something that seems to get easily overlooked. | | | Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing
[Re: Mike Fahle]
#235004 07/20/11 01:58 PM 07/20/11 01:58 PM |
Joined: Jul 2011 Posts: 20 Ottawa, Ontario NorthernWave
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Posts: 20 Ottawa, Ontario | I appreciate what you have to say about the sails, and I will no doubt be needing a new one in the future. Calvert or North seems like the way to go.
Nevertheless, the main point I was trying to raise is that compared to the easy-lock system, older rudder systems have a substantial built-in "tiller extension". My experience is that the difference is not so important going downwind, but it is significant going upwind. Since it seems unlikely that Hobie will be going back to older rudders, I would like to see consideration given to leveling the competitive advantage enjoyed by those who use the older rudder systems. I haven't priced out a new "older system" from Hobie, but I suspect it would be prohibitively expensive for me.
Taking the long view, how likely is it that new Wave sailors will want to race in regattas if they feel their factory equipped boat puts them at a significant disadvantage?
Without IWCA Wave racing would probably not exist in any meaningful way. Is the organization flexible enough to deal with unexpected challenges provided by Hobie in order to keep growing the class?
Don Thompson
| | | Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing
[Re: Mike Fahle]
#235065 07/22/11 08:59 AM 07/22/11 08:59 AM |
Joined: Jul 2011 Posts: 20 Ottawa, Ontario NorthernWave
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Posts: 20 Ottawa, Ontario | Thanks Mike. I'll have something up within a week. My objective is not to upset the established racing community. I just want to make regatta racing more competitive for those of us with newer Waves and limited resources.
Don Thompson
| | | Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing
[Re: NorthernWave]
#235068 07/22/11 09:45 AM 07/22/11 09:45 AM | xanderwess
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Unregistered | What does any of this mean? "As for the rudders, it just highlights why the IWCA exists. Hobie just made that change when and as it suited them (no owner involvement). The other reason, btw, is that it is THE ONLY Hobie Wave class association, something that seems to get easily overlooked" What are you talking about? And how the hell would you know anything about how/why HCA changed their rudder policy?? No owner involvement? You know this for sure? Really? And what does this mean: "Without IWCA Wave racing would probably not exist in any meaningful way. Is the organization flexible enough to deal with unexpected challenges provided by Hobie in order to keep growing the class?" Unexpected challenges provided by Hobie? What? No meaningful way.......define that. | | | Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing
[Re: ]
#235070 07/22/11 10:08 AM 07/22/11 10:08 AM |
Joined: Apr 2008 Posts: 921 Alachua, FL Mugrace72
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Posts: 921 Alachua, FL | I think these sideways remarks are inappropriate and devisive and am surprised that there is still ill feeling toward HCA and Hobie Cat from old guard IWCA folks.
The Wave is what it is and Hobie Cat has every right to make it any way they want to.
It is up to us, the racers to manange our class fairly, whether it be HCA or HCA-NA.
We all agree that the two different rudder systems create a problem. It makes sense to me to permit a compensating device; either an extended tiller arm or tiller extension.
In fact, Rick did give me verbal permission to extend my arms when I first got my boat, but I just bit the bullet and got the whole older system.
I think a minimum crew weight is also needed and I don't buy the reasoning that no tiller extension helps the fat guys.
Jack Woehrle Hobie Wave #100, Tiger Shark III HCA-NA 5022-1 USSailing 654799E Alachua FL/Put-In-Bay | | | Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing
[Re: Mugrace72]
#235077 07/22/11 11:55 AM 07/22/11 11:55 AM | xanderwess
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| xanderwess
Unregistered | I don't buy it either. The ezloc rudders can be updated to accomodate the EPOs (kind of a pain in the butt, but Jeremy proved it can be done) and there is nothing written anywhere that says you can't match the arm lenght to that of the original rudders. I just don't understand the negativity toward the HCA-NA from this guy, when we've done nothing but try like hell to be as accomodating at our events (regarding equipment) as we possibly can. Even totally ignoring our written rules for the MWE events in florida. And as far as meaningful Wave sailing goes, we had 12 boats at the mini mega. NOt alot of the HCA racers (16s, 20s etc....) are very big fans of the wave so I was pretty happy to get that many. | | | Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing
[Re: ]
#235078 07/22/11 12:41 PM 07/22/11 12:41 PM |
Joined: Apr 2008 Posts: 921 Alachua, FL Mugrace72
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Posts: 921 Alachua, FL | I just don't understand the negativity toward the HCA-NA from this guy, when we've done nothing but try like hell to be as accomodating at our events (regarding equipment) as we possibly can. Even totally ignoring our written rules for the MWE events in florida. And as far as meaningful Wave sailing goes, we had 12 boats at the mini mega. NOt alot of the HCA racers (16s, 20s etc....) are very big fans of the wave so I was pretty happy to get that many. Chris, I don't know why Mike is so negative, but he does not speak for the majority of the Wave sailors that I interact with. We are very appreciative about the way HCA-NA has reached out under your leadership. Keep up the great job!
Jack Woehrle Hobie Wave #100, Tiger Shark III HCA-NA 5022-1 USSailing 654799E Alachua FL/Put-In-Bay | | | Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing
[Re: ]
#235081 07/22/11 01:21 PM 07/22/11 01:21 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 425 Toledo, Ohio (western end of ... Mike Fahle
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Posts: 425 Toledo, Ohio (western end of ... | Well, Chris, I was not asked about the rudder change, and I am an owner. That's one way I know and the only opinion I have heard about the rudder changes are negative, as recently expressed on this forum. So let's put your resentment to my comments to the test. Do you know of any owners that Hobie consulted with before making the rudder change?
Here is another test since Chris wants to know (I feel like the damage is already done, so who cares why they did what, as Jack correctly points out, they had every right to do, no matter how owners felt about it): Anyone who was consulted by Hobie before they changed the rudders, let us hear from you on this forum.
| | | Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing
[Re: Mike Fahle]
#235096 07/22/11 03:31 PM 07/22/11 03:31 PM | xanderwess
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| xanderwess
Unregistered | They (the manufacturer) took a 'pleasure' boat and made more efficient to work, use and SELL to the masses. The 'Racers' (which there are really not many of relatively speaking) had to suffer a bit, but that's just the way it goes. Next time a the factory needs to make a decision on making things easier for kids/regular joe sailors to use and see if they can make a better buck on, I'll give them your email so they can check with you first. The 'change' we were (I thought) speaking of was the FACT that the HCA just changed the Wave Rules (HCA Wave Rules) to allow for the 'upgrade' of the std. rudder to the High Performance blade. with that, a number of owners were asked their opinion. I know this because I was the one that asked. You got a burr in your saddle buddy and I don't who put it there, but it sure as hell wasn't the HCA or me.
I love you too Jack!
Last edited by xanderwess; 07/22/11 03:35 PM.
| | | Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing
[Re: ]
#235106 07/22/11 07:49 PM 07/22/11 07:49 PM |
Joined: Apr 2008 Posts: 921 Alachua, FL Mugrace72
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Posts: 921 Alachua, FL | Next time a the factory needs to make a decision on making things easier for kids/regular joe sailors to use and see if they can make a better buck on, I'll give them your email so they can check with you first. Chris, Please forward Mike's info on to Hobie's R&R department so they can keep him in the loop on any planned product changes. I have spoken with several other Wave racers today and none of us want Hobie to contact us about such things. I for one want to be on the "no call" list.
Jack Woehrle Hobie Wave #100, Tiger Shark III HCA-NA 5022-1 USSailing 654799E Alachua FL/Put-In-Bay | | | Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing
[Re: ]
#235132 07/23/11 11:15 AM 07/23/11 11:15 AM |
Joined: Jul 2011 Posts: 20 Ottawa, Ontario NorthernWave
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Posts: 20 Ottawa, Ontario | First of all, I understand why Hobie made the rudder change. It is no doubt less expensive and therefore helps keep the price of boats down and the number of boats sold up. The more Waves there are, the happier I am. The EZ LOCs function just fine and the assembly is as tough as nails.
Secondly, modifying the length of the tiller arm on an EZ LOC rudder assembly would be a violation of Rules 2 and 6.
Again, I have NO criticism of the IWCA. Without Rick White and his efforts, I stand by my assertion that Wave racing would not likely exist at its current level of activity.
BTW, I purchased my first Wave in 1999. My current Wave is a 2008 model.
Don Thompson
| | | Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing
[Re: Mike Fahle]
#235142 07/23/11 08:33 PM 07/23/11 08:33 PM | xanderwess
Unregistered
| xanderwess
Unregistered | Northern Wave: I just looked at IHCA rules and 1.2 says you can't modify the rudder assemply or rudders except for min. filing. I think that is bs and am going to pose the question to our rules people. IF the Wave has 2 rudder systems and two distinct lenghts on the arms, then they should at the very least be able to modify them so that they are equal distance (from the mast I guess) so that fatties and skinnys alike have similar advantage. I'll work on that. Mike: If you didn't sound like you were being negative towards HCA, I wouldn't have thought to comment, but since you did sound negative, I took defense (as I always will) We have worked pretty friggin' hard to get a some situations put together where the minute number of Wave sailor in the world can get together and get our wave on. I don't like anyone rocking that boat. | | | Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing
[Re: mmiller]
#235203 07/25/11 07:54 PM 07/25/11 07:54 PM | xanderwess
Unregistered
| xanderwess
Unregistered | I want to change my vote. Tiller ext. is logical. I needed to have it explained to me as the only $$ effective and practical way to level the playing field. Carry on. cw
Last edited by xanderwess; 07/25/11 08:00 PM.
| | | Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing
[Re: BigWhoop]
#236018 08/10/11 09:56 AM 08/10/11 09:56 AM |
Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 342 Indianapolis, IN - Midwest USA... IndyWave
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Posts: 342 Indianapolis, IN - Midwest USA... | If you put your cursor on the triangles, it says the topic has more than 40 repies or 100000 views. Other forums call it a "Hot Topic." Obviously you've sparked some debate. Good job! Thank you!
What - Me Worry?
2006 Hobie Wave 7358 "Ish Kabibble"
| | | Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing
[Re: jackbr549]
#236535 08/19/11 02:01 PM 08/19/11 02:01 PM |
Joined: Mar 2002 Posts: 3,355 Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ... RickWhite
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Posts: 3,355 Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ... | We had an era where many were running with one rudder up, but most of us use both all the time. We rake the mast aft to load up the rudders as daggerboards, so why pull one up? Personally, I think I have better feel of the helm with both rudders down. And without raising a rudder, you don't take a chance on the locking mechanism going the wrong way (old system)
Rick | | |
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