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Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: mmiller] #235410
07/29/11 12:56 PM
07/29/11 12:56 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 921
Alachua, FL
Mugrace72 Offline
old hand
Mugrace72  Offline
old hand
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 921
Alachua, FL
Originally Posted by mmiller
I also agree that shortening the original length arms to EZ Loc length makes sense as an option.


I don't think I will cut my dearly procured Hobie 20 arms down so I can sit father back on an occaisional screeming reach. crazy


Jack Woehrle
Hobie Wave #100, Tiger Shark III
HCA-NA 5022-1
USSailing 654799E
Alachua FL/Put-In-Bay
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Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: mmiller] #235462
07/30/11 07:18 AM
07/30/11 07:18 AM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 77
TigerLilly Offline
journeyman
TigerLilly  Offline
journeyman
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 77
Originally Posted by mmiller
I was asked to post a comment that I had made about this issue in another thread.

Quote
I'd say allow a hiking stick on either version. You cannot lengthen tiller arms on an EZ Loc system. That will not work. The tiller crossbar has to be aft of the sail clew to raise the rudders.

Next... maybe dis-allow raising one rudder when sailing. Most of the difference solved. Ez Loc rudders sail pretty much the same as do aluminum systems with blades down... raising one blade is the biggest difference for racing. The difference in Ackerman effect is minimal. EZ Loc systems do not work well with one blade up. The tiller arm up/down geometry causes issues.

Last... why did we change to EZ Loc to begin with? This was not cost driven. This was to simplify raising and lowering rudders period... which was a big problem for the majority of users. This has been a HUGE success. No more heavy weather helm from an incorrectly locked down rudder, no stuck cams, no sandy plunger lubricant. It's a great system. Yes, we had to move the tiller crossbar aft and remove the Ackerman to make it work, but well worth the changes.

Lastly... we reserve the right to make changes to the Wave and Getaway as we please. No questions would be asked of racers for approval. These are our bread and butter entry level boats... these are not stuck in one design slots. They are simply meant to be fun and easy to sail. Which they certainly are.


I also agree that shortening the original length arms to EZ Loc length makes sense as an option.



I've been reading all the tiller extension threads and have been reserving comment for a couple of reasons.

1.) I wanted to check it out on the water.
At our Fleet race Thursday night, my buddy (EZ locks) and I, (old style) were racing downwind in, light air, to finish, discussing the tiller's pro's and con's. We ended up agreeing. It's a huge comfort asset and a huge speed asset.

2.) I was surprised that a forum post proposal from an anonymous "stranger" to the forum could have constituted a major rule change. It took me forever to figure out it was Don Thomson. Rick cleared that up

As for the rules proposal, here is how a rule is changed:
b. Changes to the class rules:
i. Proposed permanent rule changes shall be submitted, by any member to the Rules Chairperson, for consideration at least 30 days prior to the annual meeting. Upon consideration of the change, the rules committee may either:
1. Recommend the change.
2. Reject the proposed change.
3. Modify the proposed change.
ii. Upon b.i.1 or b.i.3 above,
1. A Web site posting shall occur stating the proposed change, at least 15 days prior to the meeting.
2. A "YES" vote by a two-thirds votes of the membership present, providing there is a quorum, including absentee ballots and proxy votes at the annual meeting shall be sufficient to change the class rule.
3. To take effect on March 1st of the following year.


3. ) Weight Is a VERY big issue, tiller or not. Racing Hobies for 35 plus years has forced me to stay in relatively good shape, a bottom line Keep it simple rule. All the different equipment in the world will not take the place of a fit sailor that spends tons of time on the water.

Sincerely,
Mimi Appel
Fleet 204
Syracuse, NY

Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: TigerLilly] #235769
08/05/11 02:44 PM
08/05/11 02:44 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 41
Ottawa, Canada
BigWhoop Offline
newbie
BigWhoop  Offline
newbie
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 41
Ottawa, Canada
A bunch of things:

1. You tried discussing tiller extensions while racing without trying one? I think everybody knows that the old style tillers are better for racing. It appears that all serious racers have the $1500 downgrade. Now let's talk about tiller extensions. Or maybe try them.

2. The rules say that even an anonymous "stranger" can make a change proposal. Not so anonymous and not so much of a stranger when he submitted everything to this forum before doing anything with it. And incorporated suggestions.

Has the rule change been submitted to the Rules Chairperson? Will the Rules Chairperson notify the class members of the proposal? Has the rules committee discussed the proposal? Who are the members? Who has to post the proposed change? Has that been done by Don putting it up here?

How do we submit absentee ballots and proxies? How many members are there in the IWCA (I can do the 66% myself).

Since this forum exists maybe we could discuss, propose, modify, vote, and change a little more rapidly. Rather than just letting the folks who go to the Nationals vote.

3. I know that weight is a VERY big issue. But some folks grew up to be the right size to play college ball and some didn't. It might be nice to make an effort to be inclusive for recreational sailing.

Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: BigWhoop] #235788
08/06/11 02:36 PM
08/06/11 02:36 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline

Carpal Tunnel
RickWhite  Offline

Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
Rules were put into place so we would have a good one-design class. Sorry you don't like them, but they were voted in unanimously.
Rick


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: RickWhite] #235794
08/06/11 07:53 PM
08/06/11 07:53 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 421
Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
Mike Fahle Offline
addict
Mike Fahle  Offline
addict
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 421
Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
Wow, that was certainly non-responsive to his legitimate comments and questions. Sounds an awfull lot like a response from Hobie in the old days, Rick. You used to hate that kind of thing.

Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: RickWhite] #235800
08/07/11 07:29 AM
08/07/11 07:29 AM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 20
Ottawa, Ontario
N
NorthernWave Offline OP
stranger
NorthernWave  Offline OP
stranger
N
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 20
Ottawa, Ontario
First of all, I have no intention of embarrassing myself by arguing about what makes a catamaran go fast with the man who literally wrote the book on catamaran racing. Yes, I have a copy.

I appreciate the struggle that took place back in the days when I bought my first Wave to try and develop a Wave class association. Hobie Co. just wasn't interested. It wasn't what they envisioned for the Wave. Since then, the H17 has gone out of production and the class is in decline. The TheMightyHobie18 was superseded by the Tiger and other F18s, and as a class, it is facing extinction.

Similarly, the Wave that the IWCA established the one-design class rules for has been out of production for a number of years. The EZ LOC Waves now being produced are not equivalent boats to the older models. It seems to me that without a successful effort to attract EZ LOC Wave owners to IWCA regattas, the Class Association is doomed to wither.

As an EZ LOC Wave owner, I have to ask myself if it is worth the time and expense to attend an IWCA regatta in a boat that I believe is slower by design than others on the start line. Does the IWCA even want me there?

I don't believe the outcome of the vote on my Rules proposal is a foregone No. Despite Rick's well-deserved influence and the fact that a majority of the IWCA in attendance at the Wave Nationals will be sailing with older style rudders, I think enough IWCA members will agree that my proposed rule changes are in the best long-term interests of the Association.

Also, I don't see what harm would be done by inviting EZ LOC Waves with tiller extensions to a few regattas (on trial basis) to evaluate their boat-to-boat competitiveness? Those voting on the proposal would have more information to base their decision on.

The next IWCA event nearest me is the Wave North Americans in September in Indianapolis. It's a 14 hour drive each way, but I have a brother living at the half-way mark. To put put my money where my mouth is, if I am allowed to sail with my tiller extension, and in the absence of inclement weather, I will attend the regatta. I don't care if my results form part of the official standings. I am certain to get my butt kicked anyways frown

Finally, (to Mimi) I still don't think I have figured out how to get the word stranger off my profile. I'll post this and see.

Don Thompson
Fleet 298
Hull #189
Kanata, Ontario, Canada
Profession: retired (yippeee!!!!)





Don Thompson
Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: RickWhite] #235808
08/07/11 01:27 PM
08/07/11 01:27 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,582
“an island in the Pacific....
hobie1616 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
hobie1616  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,582
“an island in the Pacific....
Originally Posted by RickWhite
Sorry you don't like them, but they were voted in unanimously.

Does unanimously mean the rules were cast into stone? Manufacturers change stuff, conditions change, etc. Were the rules writers all seeing where their final submission for a vote addressed every contingency possible for the life of the boat?

Any set of laws or rules is a best guess to cover the conditions when they were written. The IWCA does, per its constitution, recognize that there can be changes. Specifically:

4. Meetings:
[...]
vii. New Business.
1. New motions.
2. Vote on rule or bylaw changes.

v. Rules Chairman
1. Be responsible for keeping the class rules current and organize any proposed rule changes.
[...]
4. Monitor class rules and recommend changes to the committee


So, let the petitioners for a tiller extension state their case, work through through the process, and put it to a vote.


US Sail Level 2 Instructor
US Sail Level 3 Coach
Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: Mike Fahle] #235809
08/07/11 03:38 PM
08/07/11 03:38 PM

X
xanderwess
Unregistered
xanderwess
Unregistered
X


Originally Posted by Mike Fahle
Wow, that was certainly non-responsive to his legitimate comments and questions. Sounds an awfull lot like a response from Hobie in the old days, Rick. You used to hate that kind of thing.

Hilarious!

Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: ] #235818
08/08/11 06:29 AM
08/08/11 06:29 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline

Carpal Tunnel
RickWhite  Offline

Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
Certainly rules can be changed, but not on this or any other forum. There is a specific way to do so. We set it up that way so changes wanted by a few would have to be accepted the majority.


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: RickWhite] #235822
08/08/11 08:38 AM
08/08/11 08:38 AM

X
xanderwess
Unregistered
xanderwess
Unregistered
X


We (HCA) is in the 'testing' phase of this project right now. We have a boats of both variety with tillers added and using them in up/down wind situations to see if it a good/bad deal to propose a change to IHCA. Mimi is heading this up but hasn't given me the scoop on what she thinks just yet. I'll post or ask her to post her findings.

Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: ] #235826
08/08/11 09:34 AM
08/08/11 09:34 AM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 61
Albenarle NC
J
jackbr549 Offline
journeyman
jackbr549  Offline
journeyman
J
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 61
Albenarle NC
With out Rick and Mary's work in the Wave Class there may not be any Wave racing or at least not as much or as good. I think their voice should carry more weight than the adverage sailor at least in the discussion.
Reggie Poplin
North Carolina

Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: jackbr549] #235831
08/08/11 09:50 AM
08/08/11 09:50 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 887
Dunedin Causeway, FL
David Parker Offline
old hand
David Parker  Offline
old hand
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 887
Dunedin Causeway, FL
Quote
With out Rick and Mary's work in the Wave Class there may not be any Wave racing or at least not as much or as good. I think their voice should carry more weight than the adverage sailor at least in the discussion.


Wow! Remember George Orwell's "Animal Farm"?

I remember a quote that went something like this: " "All animals are created equal but some animals are more equal than others."

Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: David Parker] #235832
08/08/11 09:57 AM
08/08/11 09:57 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 887
Dunedin Causeway, FL
David Parker Offline
old hand
David Parker  Offline
old hand
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 887
Dunedin Causeway, FL
Here's a question for Hobie:

Hasn't the new rudder system has been used on Waves longer than the old system? How mny Wave's were produced with the old system (a fixed number) versus the number with the new (an ever increasing number)?

Holding on to the old design makes the boat remind me of a VW Dune Buggy where older is is the standard. Or maybe the 6 volt VW bus.

Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: David Parker] #235859
08/08/11 02:40 PM
08/08/11 02:40 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 342
Indianapolis, IN - Midwest USA...
IndyWave Offline
enthusiast
IndyWave  Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 342
Indianapolis, IN - Midwest USA...
I believe that in other one-design classes, when a change is made to the equipment for whatever reason, the folks with the older version are encouraged (sometimes required) to up-grade to the new version.

Short of requiring folks with the old style rudders & tillers to up-grade to the EZ-Locs, the tiller extension option would seem to be the best compromise.

This would actually give a slight tactical advantage to the newer boats, and encourage new sailors coming into the class; rather than fostering the implication that racing is the domain of the old-school sailors with the older boats, and newbies need pay big bucks to down-grade their brand-new boats if they want to join that private club. Folks with the old style rudders could then cut down their tillers and add the extensions (if they saw that as a competitive advantage), at a much lower cost.


What - Me Worry?


2006 Hobie Wave 7358
"Ish Kabibble"
Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: IndyWave] #235870
08/08/11 03:12 PM
08/08/11 03:12 PM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 61
Albenarle NC
J
jackbr549 Offline
journeyman
jackbr549  Offline
journeyman
J
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 61
Albenarle NC
I think the old style rudder system is by far the better system. If you do add the tiller extension the new boats will have to pass the stick behind the mainsheet.This is one of the great things about the early Waves. On the 2 Waves I have the rudders will fit off a 17 18 ect. and there are a lot of parts out there. Just change the tiller arm. I want be cutting mine down or buying the sorry new ones.

Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: IndyWave] #235875
08/08/11 03:41 PM
08/08/11 03:41 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 342
Indianapolis, IN - Midwest USA...
IndyWave Offline
enthusiast
IndyWave  Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 342
Indianapolis, IN - Midwest USA...
As for the rules being voted in unamimously, that would have been before the rudder/tiller change was made, so everyone had the same configuation. As the class association has grown, any new members are more likely to have the EZ-Locs. That original unanimous group may only comprise a small percentage of current membership. That's the price of success.

I do certainly respect Rick and the other founders of the IWCA, and the successful formula they have developed; but I think this discussion points out the fact that the situation has changed since those rules were written. It's time to take a look at the reality of boats being sold today, and how the IWCA can incorporate new members.


What - Me Worry?


2006 Hobie Wave 7358
"Ish Kabibble"
Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: jackbr549] #235884
08/08/11 04:26 PM
08/08/11 04:26 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 342
Indianapolis, IN - Midwest USA...
IndyWave Offline
enthusiast
IndyWave  Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 342
Indianapolis, IN - Midwest USA...
Originally Posted by jackbr549
I want be cutting mine down or buying the sorry new ones.

I'm not suggesting you should, but if anyone thinks there's an advantage to doing so, they should be allowed to make their boat conform to current production standards.

Originally Posted by jackbr549
Just change the tiller arm.

As has been stated repeatedly, that won't work. The EZ-Loc mechanism raises the crossbar above the clew of the sail, even with the short arms. That's why it was changed.

Maybe the old style is better for racing (although Rick admits the new style tiller arm is better in high winds), but that is not what stock Waves are equipped with any more.


What - Me Worry?


2006 Hobie Wave 7358
"Ish Kabibble"
Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: NorthernWave] #235914
08/08/11 07:18 PM
08/08/11 07:18 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 921
Alachua, FL
Mugrace72 Offline
old hand
Mugrace72  Offline
old hand
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 921
Alachua, FL
Originally Posted by NorthernWave
Finally, (to Mimi) I still don't think I have figured out how to get the word stranger off my profile. I'll post this and see.


Everyone has a title within the forum. You will notice the title below the Display Name in each post. Some titles are automatically assigned based on the number of posts a user has made, and some titles are assigned by the forum owner to denote official representatives of the company or other VIPs in the forums.


0 stranger25 newbie50 journeyman100 member200 enthusiast400 addict700 old hand1200 veteran1600 Pooh-Bah2500 Carpal Tunnel


Jack Woehrle
Hobie Wave #100, Tiger Shark III
HCA-NA 5022-1
USSailing 654799E
Alachua FL/Put-In-Bay
Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: Mugrace72] #235922
08/08/11 09:23 PM
08/08/11 09:23 PM

X
xanderwess
Unregistered
xanderwess
Unregistered
X


Just so y'all know where I am coming from: I would like to end up with a CHEAP and EASY way to modify either configuration that will satisfy the racing body of the Wave world. ONCE that is done, I intend to put it to HCA's board then on to IHCA assuming we're savvy with the potential solution. The issue at hand is how to get a tiller yoke on the crossbar, as it's not reinforced like a Hobie 14/16. I would really think that tiller ext. length is irrelevent (unless someone can convince me otherwise) but there has to be a 'sweet spot' that makes it all fair. And I would say those that don't want anything to do with a tiller ext. should have that right as well. There are a few people working on the project, with pictures and everything. As soon as they come up with something, I'll get it on this board and then we should all follow proper procedures on requesting a rule change ONCE we decide it's necessary and HOW TO DO IT that everyone would be able to agree on.

Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: ] #235941
08/09/11 07:33 AM
08/09/11 07:33 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 921
Alachua, FL
Mugrace72 Offline
old hand
Mugrace72  Offline
old hand
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 921
Alachua, FL
Originally Posted by xanderwess
I would like to end up with a CHEAP and EASY way to modify either configuration that will satisfy the racing body of the Wave world. ONCE that is done, I intend to put it to HCA's board then on to IHCA assuming we're savvy with the potential solution.


I approve of this approach and applaud Chris for soldiering along with this. Once HCA solves this issue, I think it would be almost automatic for IWCA to go along. In spite of what you may hear, most IWCA folks I have talked to will vote yes to a sensible solution. Our growth is stagnant and I think HCA is now where the new Wave interst is. We need to be national, not regional, and we need to be under one rules package. Keep up the good work guys.


Jack Woehrle
Hobie Wave #100, Tiger Shark III
HCA-NA 5022-1
USSailing 654799E
Alachua FL/Put-In-Bay
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