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Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: waterbug_wpb] #237651
09/15/11 12:00 PM
09/15/11 12:00 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
Carpal Tunnel
pgp  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
Quit whinning! laugh When can you get another kitchen pass?


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: Mark Schneider] #237652
09/15/11 12:04 PM
09/15/11 12:04 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 439
Memphis, TN
M
mikeborden Offline
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mikeborden  Offline
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M

Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 439
Memphis, TN
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Quote
What about crew weight? Let's talk about that.

This is a complete red herring... but If you must....


So now it's a red herring!!!!

There sure is a lot of people that think it's not! smile

I think weight is used too much, as a matter of fact, they use it as an EXCUSE to loose!

One of the points that I have been trying to make is stop talking, start doing! Especially if you aren't part of the class.

You don't see me telling the F18's they should loose weight cause they are too heavy! Nope, I'm not part of that class!

You also don't see me saying that the F18's should loose the small sail plan because they aren't competitive. Nope, I'm not part of the class!

Do you see me telling the A-cats that their boats are too light! Or the development is too fast, so it's hard to get into the class and be competitive. Nope, I'm not part of the class!

I could go on and on, but I don't, cause I'm not part of those classes.

I am a paying and voting member of the F16, so I can say what I want about it. If I don't like it, I can propose new rules or additions.

Some of YOU CAN NOT!

FWIW,
I'm just being very passionate about this and it seems that some people just have bold face lies about things, or the facts aren't straight.

So, don't take offense to some of this. I'm sure if I sat down with any of you over a beer, it wouldn't seem as intense as this!

Notice my smiley faces smile

smile

smile








Viper USA 132

1984 Hobie 18
Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: mikeborden] #237653
09/15/11 12:08 PM
09/15/11 12:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
Carpal Tunnel
pgp  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
Dude, you missed some really good crab cakes!


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: Mark Schneider] #237654
09/15/11 12:19 PM
09/15/11 12:19 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 126
Northern Virginia
SoggyCheetoh Offline
member
SoggyCheetoh  Offline
member

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 126
Northern Virginia
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Hans wants a practiced single handed sailor to race a two up team of the same skill. My point would be... Why bother... To race around buoys... the one up sailor is playing a very different game with two less hands on the boat.


Mark, you and I have talked about this on the beach a couple of times and being an F16 Uni racer, I'm not sure that I agree with you. I certainly thought I was playing the same game as the double handed racers. Granted, it's a bit more work to do and if a line gets fouled during a spin hoist or douse, it's a bigger deal, but when it's done right, I can beat double handed teams in those maneuvers. I also don't just put the tiller down and hope for the best while I'm setting or taking down the spinnaker. I've got it locked behind my knee set and just the angle I need to get around the mark quickly. With the spinnaker up I've found that I can sail faster and deeper then the 2 up boats which helps to make up some of the distance that I might loose without crew on board to help. I also don't have to "get in sink" with a crew when driving and working the spin, which I think helps me to stay in the groove longer than if I was racing on a 2 man boat.

Up wind I really haven't seen a difference in speed or pointing ability between the two, but I've found it a little easier to stay in the groove upwind when I have the jib on. Also weighing in at 220#, the extra sail area of the jib is nice.

The ability to race the F16 uni is what has kept me in the sport the last couple of years. I had found myself getting burned out on the sailing scene, but the feeling of flying a hull with the spin up single handed on the F16, is the kick in the pants I needed to keep coming out and playing.

I like competing straight up with the 2up F16s partially because of the challenge. Can I have a better Spin set then the other boats? Can I douse and make it around the mark better and faster then the 2up boats? Those are all little challenges I enjoy around the race course. Like Hans, I would like to see one of the top sailors compete at a Global or National F16 event single handed so that we can put some of this discussion to rest.

Respectfully,

Alec


Alec D.
Pirates of the Chesapeake www.teampiratesofthechesapeake.com
Nacra20 1057 - Crew
F16 Viper 152 - Uni
Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: SoggyCheetoh] #237655
09/15/11 01:20 PM
09/15/11 01:20 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Hi Alec
Quote
I had found myself getting burned out on the sailing scene, but the feeling of flying a hull with the spin up single handed on the F16, is the kick in the pants I needed to keep coming out and playing.


Keeping your sailing fresh is certainly important! I also had a ball sailing the Bim F16 against the Nacra F17's...not to mention Jim Boyer's Taipan 4.9 in Michigan. (never tried the super sloop mode... that's a lot of sail area!)

I appreciate that YOU think you are playing the same game... the question is... do the two double handers think that they are racing you..... or are they really just interested in racing each other?. (As you noted... you go deeper down wind..) The score sheets suggest that the double handed configuration is faster. Now, Level racing (or handicap racing) is a fine game... but it's different.

In the end... this will be decided by the EU sailors. Do they race in the 104 class?, How many single handed sailors go racing?.... Do the Vipers and Nacras even choose to race in the F16 class.

Consider that you have 9 1 up F16s at NA's... (and 11 two up teams...) While the regatta at Carnac had approx 70 boats racing 16 spinnaker open handicap class. If your rules don't match what those sailors want to be doing... they will be irrelevant world wide.

Will you be doing Oxford with Keith?


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: waterbug_wpb] #237656
09/15/11 01:21 PM
09/15/11 01:21 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb

Oh, and I want to lee-bow Ding once or twice. His use of colorful metaphors is priceless


Well, since there is no telling when you will be on the back of a boat again here you go... you mother F@#$ER!

I have more, just ask Ricky, aka "The Punk". Where is my damn hat!?


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: Mark Schneider] #237657
09/15/11 01:22 PM
09/15/11 01:22 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 606
Maryland
Kris Hathaway Offline
addict
Kris Hathaway  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 606
Maryland
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
THIS IS THE POINT.... The class rules define the game.. We understand Formula xxx class to mean the boats measure in and compete on a level playing field with boats that are equal in performance.

WRONG. Formula XXXX class rules mean the boats measure in.....period.


Kris Hathaway
Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: SoggyCheetoh] #237658
09/15/11 01:32 PM
09/15/11 01:32 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 887
Crofton, MD
Chris9 Offline
old hand
Chris9  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 887
Crofton, MD
Leave it to you to notice! blush


Chris Allen
Nacra 20 Gertie
www.wrcra.org
Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: Mark Schneider] #237659
09/15/11 01:38 PM
09/15/11 01:38 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 606
Maryland
Kris Hathaway Offline
addict
Kris Hathaway  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 606
Maryland
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Consider that you have 9 1 up F16s at NA's... (and 11 two up teams...) While the regatta at Carnac had approx 70 boats racing 16 spinnaker open handicap class. If your rules don't match what those sailors want to be doing... they will be irrelevant world wide.


What is most relevant to me? It is the local/club scene. Last night, 6 Unis and 1 2-up, over half of the boats competing last night were F16s. If the rules do not disenfranchise the Unis, there is always the possibility of all unis picking up crew for a major event....or not. The choice is theirs.


Kris Hathaway
Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: Chris9] #237660
09/15/11 01:39 PM
09/15/11 01:39 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 126
Northern Virginia
SoggyCheetoh Offline
member
SoggyCheetoh  Offline
member

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 126
Northern Virginia
Originally Posted by Chris9
Leave it to you to notice! blush


If only more people could see the world through my eyes and my sense of humor.


Alec D.
Pirates of the Chesapeake www.teampiratesofthechesapeake.com
Nacra20 1057 - Crew
F16 Viper 152 - Uni
Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: Mark Schneider] #237662
09/15/11 01:47 PM
09/15/11 01:47 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 126
Northern Virginia
SoggyCheetoh Offline
member
SoggyCheetoh  Offline
member

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 126
Northern Virginia
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Hi Alec
Quote
I had found myself getting burned out on the sailing scene, but the feeling of flying a hull with the spin up single handed on the F16, is the kick in the pants I needed to keep coming out and playing.


Keeping your sailing fresh is certainly important! I also had a ball sailing the Bim F16 against the Nacra F17's...not to mention Jim Boyer's Taipan 4.9 in Michigan. (never tried the super sloop mode... that's a lot of sail area!)

I appreciate that YOU think you are playing the same game... the question is... do the two double handers think that they are racing you..... or are they really just interested in racing each other?. (As you noted... you go deeper down wind..) The score sheets suggest that the double handed configuration is faster. Now, Level racing (or handicap racing) is a fine game... but it's different.

In the end... this will be decided by the EU sailors. Do they race in the 104 class?, How many single handed sailors go racing?.... Do the Vipers and Nacras even choose to race in the F16 class.

Consider that you have 9 1 up F16s at NA's... (and 11 two up teams...) While the regatta at Carnac had approx 70 boats racing 16 spinnaker open handicap class. If your rules don't match what those sailors want to be doing... they will be irrelevant world wide.

Will you be doing Oxford with Keith?


Yep, I'll be sailing on the Pirate boat for the Oxford/Hammond race. As much as I like sailing uni, Distancing racing alone just isn't that much fun to me. I guess I just can't think of enough interesting things to talk about to keep myself occupied. After about an hours there's just this awkward silence on the boat. grin

You bring up another interesting point on whether or not the 2up boats feel like they are really racing against the uni's or just against each other. I never thought about that before. I hope so...

Alec


Alec D.
Pirates of the Chesapeake www.teampiratesofthechesapeake.com
Nacra20 1057 - Crew
F16 Viper 152 - Uni
Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: David Ingram] #237663
09/15/11 01:48 PM
09/15/11 01:48 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb

Oh, and I want to lee-bow Ding once or twice. His use of colorful metaphors is priceless


Well, since there is no telling when you will be on the back of a boat again here you go... you mother F@#$ER!

I have more, just ask Ricky, aka "The Punk". Where is my damn hat!?


I have your hat but, unfortunately, it will be staying in S.C. with me next week.


Jake Kohl
Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: Cab] #237664
09/15/11 01:58 PM
09/15/11 01:58 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 571
Hamburg
Smiths_Cat Offline
addict
Smiths_Cat  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 571
Hamburg
Originally Posted by Cab
When compared to current F16 designs, it looks like nacra went with significantly more curve in the rocker from the front beam up to the bow and less freeboard in the bow. Anybody know the design theory behind this?

I relized as well. That amount of rocker was popular some time ago. Why was it dropped? Does the deck has a chine between bow and cross beam?

Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: Jake] #237665
09/15/11 02:14 PM
09/15/11 02:14 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
Originally Posted by Jake

I have your hat but, unfortunately, it will be staying in S.C. with me next week.


Seriously!? I know what your doing, you want to hold onto that Spring Fever beat down you gave me just a little longer don't you? If you're scared just say your scared.

Don't worry, the south will deliver a little payback for north invading the United States of America.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: Smiths_Cat] #237673
09/15/11 06:26 PM
09/15/11 06:26 PM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 242
Brisveagas
Aido Offline
enthusiast
Aido  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 242
Brisveagas
Originally Posted by Smiths_Cat
Originally Posted by Cab
When compared to current F16 designs, it looks like nacra went with significantly more curve in the rocker from the front beam up to the bow and less freeboard in the bow. Anybody know the design theory behind this?

I relized as well. That amount of rocker was popular some time ago. Why was it dropped? Does the deck has a chine between bow and cross beam?


Not sure what older boats your referring to smiths? Tiger?

While the boat looks very much like the little brother of the infusion and the f20, the rocker sort of reminds me of the new Cirrus. Appears to have a bit of a reverse in the stern???


Aido
Viper 288
Re: New Nacra F16 info [Re: Aido] #237675
09/15/11 07:39 PM
09/15/11 07:39 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,911
South Florida & the Keys
arbo06 Offline
Pooh-Bah
arbo06  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,911
South Florida & the Keys
Classified ad.

"Looking for a used F-16"

NACRA aint stupid.


Eric Arbogast
ARC 2101
Miami Yacht Club
From the F-16 forum... not my words [Re: arbo06] #237676
09/15/11 07:42 PM
09/15/11 07:42 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,911
South Florida & the Keys
arbo06 Offline
Pooh-Bah
arbo06  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,911
South Florida & the Keys
The argument is raging again about building to minimum weight. I am finding out that what you get is like the engine in a dragster. Built for one fast run.

My 2006 Blade is on its third set of rudders. The heads keep splitting. The first time I ever went on a screaming two up jib reach a dagger broke (we weren't even trapping).

Now, I have a deck flexing so bad it has completely let go at the dagger board trunk. This is a boat that has been sailed predominately single handed on a lake by a 180 pounder. Both hulls have 4 foot long cracks between the trunk and the rear beam approximately 4 inches down the sides . Cracked outside, cracked inside, I am sure the foam is cracked too.

I removed the deck and found that the only thing supporting it's span was the trunk. There was a 1 inch gap between the foam laminated into the deck and the hull sides. This left a couple thin layers of glass to deal with the transition from thick to thin. There were no bulkheads in this area of the hull. Only a couple of loose fitting foam blocks between the hull and trunk. Removing the tramp track showed where the glue securing it had failed as there were many screw holes that had seriously elongated

So, an 180 person is able to break down the boat sailing it on a lake from June to September in only 5 years. I am seriously dissapointed in these major mechanical failures. This boat has never been in a collision and has never run aground.

I don't have the heart to try to sell this to someone. I sailed a 1977 Nacra for many years and a club member is still sailing it. I cannot imagine what a Blade will look like in 34 years.


Last edited by arbo06; 09/15/11 07:43 PM.

Eric Arbogast
ARC 2101
Miami Yacht Club
Re: From the F-16 forum... not my words [Re: arbo06] #237683
09/16/11 03:27 AM
09/16/11 03:27 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 757
japan
erice Offline
old hand
erice  Offline
old hand

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 757
japan
a 1977 nacra is likely to be a 17' nacra5.2 weighing in at 161kg

looks a little heavy by today's standards

but when hobie build a boat to beat it, the TheMightyHobie18, it weighed 181kg

and that's right where the F18 class desided to set their minimum weight of 180kg

by those standards a new, cheap, tough, alloy and glass F16 at around 120kg doesn't sound over-weightt


Last edited by erice; 09/16/11 03:29 AM.

eric e
1982 nacra 5.2 - 2158
2009 weta tri - 294
Re: From the F-16 forum... not my words [Re: erice] #237684
09/16/11 03:35 AM
09/16/11 03:35 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
old hand
macca  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
Originally Posted by erice
by those standards a new, cheap, tough, alloy and glass F16 at around 120kg doesn't sound over-weightt



At more than 20k it's not cheap though....


________________________
http://aus300.blogspot.com
Re: From the F-16 forum... not my words [Re: erice] #237685
09/16/11 03:41 AM
09/16/11 03:41 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,584
+31NL
Tony_F18 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Tony_F18  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,584
+31NL
Im guessing most of the parts of the new Nacra F16 come from the Infusion (mast, beams, rudders, boards, etc) in order to keep the price down for both tooling and manufacturing.
Downside is probably a heavier boat and it might not be responsible to get every weight gain just from the hulls (instead of spreading it across every part).
If it sails as good as it looks they might have a real winner here.

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