Announcements
New Discussions
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
F18HT Development = Good or Bad? #25137
10/15/03 09:17 PM
10/15/03 09:17 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
I hesitate to bring this up because I don't want to say anything detrimental to any catamaran classes and I have always admired the F18hts. However, I'm really interested in everyone else's take on the following article. I know this won't go down easy with a few of ya' so I'm coating my dry suit with fire retardant spray as we speak - FLAME ON.

This would scare the poopie out of me if I owned one of these boats. Seriously - how can a normal person keep up with someone who's spending all that dough on development of a production boat? F18HT too heavy? He bought three sails for the boat in a day! Talking about the carbon fiber mast: "The mast is a beast. We can barely right the boat". Holy Cow Dung Batman!! C'mon let's flip my 6.0NA - I'll show you a beast to right! This guy is probably unloading $20,000 to better a $12k(??) Javelin F18HT. With this boat (class) being selected for the ICCT you can also bet that a few more will develop it further with a lot of cash leaving the regular folks in the dust and with outdated equipment. Do you think this is going to healthy for the class? How about for the sport?

The F18HT Bleeding Edge (literally!)


Jake Kohl
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: F18HT Development = Good or Bad? [Re: Jake] #25138
10/15/03 10:13 PM
10/15/03 10:13 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
I don't know what the class rules are for the Formula 18HT, but if all the stuff he is doing to that boat is within what the Formula allows, I think it's great! This is not a one-design class -- it's a FORMULA class.

Everyone keeps lamenting that we don't have a "development" class. If the F18HT class can fill some of this gap, what's wrong with that? And gains will never be made if we don't have some people with enough money to take a chance on experimenting.

He has no idea whether his modifications are going to improve the boat. And he has no idea whether his modifications are going to help him win any races. But he is willing to take the gamble. If his modifications work, there may be ideas that can be useful to other existing classes and also can have an influence on future designs.

Being a Formula class, just as the A-Class is, I assume that people who cannot afford to spend a fortune modifying an already expensive boat can build a boat in their garage and apply all their own creativity and inventions and come up with a very fast boat that costs less than a production F-18HT. Would you also object to that?

Anyway, is this kind of development good for the F-18HT class? That is yet to be determined, but it has not seemed to hurt the A-Class. Is it good for the sport of sailing? Definitely!

Oh my god [Re: Jake] #25139
10/15/03 11:41 PM
10/15/03 11:41 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
BANNED
MauganN20 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
MauganN20  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
BANNED
You've got to be kidding me...

Quote
WF figures our platform is 8 lbs over minimum.


EIGHT pounds?

I think that I've clearly defined my thoughts on silliness such as this in past threads.

Re: Oh my god [Re: MauganN20] #25140
10/16/03 12:10 AM
10/16/03 12:10 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
BANNED
MauganN20 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
MauganN20  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
BANNED
Also I'd like to point out that this guy seems to think that Carbon is the end-all-be-all of construction materials. He seems to know enough about it to be dangerous...

Quote
Both of rudder heads show voids in the aluminum castings, so still looking at what to do. Something carbon though. The rudders and daggers seem quite good, if only I can get my rudders to stop leaking.


Really, I'm not familiar with the design or construction of the F18HT boats, but making things out of carbon, that are not suited for that material, can cause failure.

(Reminding the readers that this is coming from a guy thats intending on purchasing an all-carbon tornado..heh)

Re: Oh my god [Re: MauganN20] #25141
10/16/03 02:09 AM
10/16/03 02:09 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Just a diversion to this thread:

MaughanH17, you do know that you can not use that Carbon Tornado in a Tornado class event and get scored ?

Also a side note. The Tornado class was approaced by the ICCT, but the class board did not want the Tornado in that event.. There has also been some discussion within the Tornado class about wether the Olympic status is 'a good ting' for the Tornado class or a hindrance. But that is another discussion.

Over to the F18HT: If it is within the class rules, of course he can spend his money on 'go fast' gear. He will either kill off the class, start a new trend or get depressed by his boats performance when racing and quit sailing
I have to agree with Mary, if it is within the formula, why not ? Something good might eventually come out of it. But when he wants to adjust the minimum weight limit of the class, that's when the brakes have to be put on in my opinion.
Mary mentions the 'garage' option. I think that option is dvindling fast these days. Most people dont have the skills to design and build competitive boats these days. Just handling pre-preg carbon is quite laboursome. An autoclave is out of the question for most garage builders, as is the math for lay-up schemes and foam/glass composite panels.

But obviously, money is not an issue for this sailor. It will be fun to watch wether this affects the F18HT class.

Re: F18HT Development = Good or Bad? [Re: Jake] #25142
10/16/03 05:26 AM
10/16/03 05:26 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 334
Crystal Beach/Dunedin CSWY Fl.
catsailorp19mx Offline
enthusiast
catsailorp19mx  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 334
Crystal Beach/Dunedin CSWY Fl.
I'll bite on this...never been flamed before. We are entitled to our "opinions", right.

I say that there are always going to be those individuals that bring up the money issue in sailing. If you have the resources to modify your boat (or any other toy you may have) and that is what you want to do.... then so be it. Not everyone is interested in how to hold together a 25 year old sail or jury-rigging from Ace Hardware.

Fast cars, motorcycles, power boats, monohulls, skis,.................have all been tweaked with money. If one can not afford (or has other priorities) for their money, then they have to accept the fact that they can't play with those that can.

I am asking myself if it is worth posting this because of the heat I will probably get from the "bailing wire" crowd, but I'll stick my neck out because it is "my opinion".
Dave

Re: F18HT Development = Good or Bad? [Re: Jake] #25143
10/16/03 05:32 AM
10/16/03 05:32 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 612
Cape Town, South Africa
Steve_Kwiksilver Offline
addict
Steve_Kwiksilver  Offline
addict

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 612
Cape Town, South Africa
I agree with Mary, good thing for the sport, not sure about the class though. I suppose the class rules are open enough for the name, it is after all F18HT (High-tech) No mention of one-design, just a box-rule.
Good for the sport : One-design classes like Hobie 16 & Dart 18 etc insist on enforcing rules which were drawn up 20-30 years ago, when things were different - at the time dacron was much cheaper than "high-tech" materials such as mylar, so they were protecting their members from high costs. Now the cost difference is small enough to warrant the extra expense, as the mylar sails will outlast & outperform the dacron (my opinion). This only came about because other forward-thinking classes allowed the use of higher-tech materials, increasing the demand for them, which in turn reduced the manufacturing cost. On this premise, if enough demand is created, maybe one day carbon beams & masts will only cost a fraction more than aluminium. This will only happen if these ideas are tried, tested & proven to be better than the current norm.
Regarding boats for "ordinary folk" these are clearly not, but suit sailors with large funds, who indirectly will help the future development of cats and other yachts. It`s good we have them, they aren`t always the best sailors, but have a lot of cash, and will help develop the sport. Maybe that`s why we tend to dislike them, we envy their ability to spend heaps of cash on boats !
For the rest of us, there are 3 formula classes that allow for all types of crew weights, configurations, budgets and levels of bravery.
Me, even if I had the money, I`d have no interest in doing the Little America`s Cup, don`t want millions of tv viewers saying " who`s that guy who keeps holding up the start of the next race ?"

Cheers
Steve

Re: Oh my god [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #25144
10/16/03 06:55 AM
10/16/03 06:55 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Quote
Mary mentions the 'garage' option. I think that option is dvindling fast these days. Most people dont have the skills to design and build competitive boats these days. Just handling pre-preg carbon is quite laboursome. An autoclave is out of the question for most garage builders, as is the math for lay-up schemes and foam/glass composite panels.


Yes, it would be a challenge, wouldn't it? But that's what creativity and experimentation and development are all about. Maybe someday somebody will basket-weave a boat out of palm fronds and figure out a way to make it stiff and watertight. That kind of thinking won't happen if everyone starts believing the only way to lighter and faster is spending money or having an autoclave in your garage.

Last edited by Mary; 10/16/03 07:05 AM.
Re: F18HT Development = Good or Bad? [Re: Jake] #25145
10/16/03 08:49 AM
10/16/03 08:49 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 548
MERRITTISLAND, FL
Matt M Offline
addict
Matt M  Offline
addict

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 548
MERRITTISLAND, FL
Jake,

Way to stir the pot.

If its not the weight issue, then its money.
For all but the very few select persons neither really matters, as the reason they got beat was most likely that they were out sailed.

If you are serious about competing, then you need equipment that is in the ball park with everyone else, 20 year old blown out sails will not quite do it. But we can not place a money limit effectivly. What about the guy sailing 16s with the new boat everyother year and new sails every year. Are we going to throw him out. At the least he is pumping a lot of good used boats into the market to hopefully grow the sport.

There are a bunch of voices on this forum always bitching about wanting more formula and/or box rule designs. Now they are bitching that you should not spend any money. Any new formula or box rule will have a lot of money and changes being done early in it existance as people try to sort it out. As it matures that optimum configurations will be sorted out and changes minimized. Look at the A-cat, not that much new development is being done now and several designs are out there all very competitive with each other.

I think its great to have new stuff out there. If this guy want to be a "technoweenie" and spend a lot of money, more power to him, but he better be spending at least equal time sailing it or it will not matter.


Matt

Re: Oh my god [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #25146
10/16/03 09:04 AM
10/16/03 09:04 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
BANNED
MauganN20 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
MauganN20  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
BANNED
Rolf: I know that I wont be class legal. I don't mind, I just like going fast and being the first one back to the bar

Re: Oh my god [Re: MauganN20] #25147
10/16/03 09:20 AM
10/16/03 09:20 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1
Switzerland
Volvento Offline
stranger
Volvento  Offline
stranger

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1
Switzerland
I sail a F18ht in Europe. In former times I have other Katamarane sails Hobbies, A-Class, Taipan it am all good Katamarane. But over with "us" at Regattats to keep up in front I bought a F18ht.
Different Katamarane for different People in different sail Districts.

For me the F18ht great I sail is alone and too second.
The Speed is the same as with the F20 with us at the Lake

Greet Steve


Re: F18HT Development = Good or Bad? [Re: Jake] #25148
10/16/03 10:39 AM
10/16/03 10:39 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 180
Chelmsford, MA
Barry Offline
member
Barry  Offline
member

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 180
Chelmsford, MA
Jake
Time will tell. You will see the development of soft wing sails. They can offer all the upsides of an illegal hard wing but fit into the rules. They have very little sheet loads because you are not "sheeting the sail in".
See image

Attached Files
25363-softwing18ht.jpg (125 downloads)
Re: Oh my god [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #25149
10/16/03 11:38 AM
10/16/03 11:38 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 778
Houston
carlbohannon Offline
old hand
carlbohannon  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 778
Houston
"Most people don't have the skills to design and build competitive boats these days. Just handling pre-preg carbon is quite laboursome. An autoclave is out of the question for most garage builders, as is the math for lay-up schemes and foam/glass composite panels."

I agree that the techniques you mention are not for garage designers but,

1) These techniques are for volume builders, there are other techniques that yield very similar results that are suitable for the garage builder

2) The 18HT is not cutting edge in terms of weight and materials. A platform weight of 120 kg is feasible using wood epoxy carbon, aluminum beams, and carbon mast. If you used synthetic rigging you might be able to use an aluminum mast.

3) You could probably modify a 5.5 uni or Inter 18 to come close. If you did, you would end up lighter aloft than a purpose built 18HT.

Yes, a garage designer could compete in 18HT

As a side issue, one day this winter put all your Tornado's standing rigging in a pile and weigh it, I did, it shocked me

"Greed is good" [Re: Barry] #25150
10/16/03 12:03 PM
10/16/03 12:03 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 390
samevans Offline
enthusiast
samevans  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 390
I fall on the "go for it" side with Mary.
Some reasons:
This is one person spending thousands of dollars to improve on a boat design which is already very advanced.
He is funding the developement that the companies and normal people can't.
The Class seems well organized and could quickly outlaw anything which causes problems(the iF18 Class outlawed canted daggerboards).

Tad, in light boats, weight is critical. A sailor can't be sure that he will have a good start or pick the correct side of the course, but he can make sure that the boat is as efficient (light, smooth, clean) as possible. Most A Class boats come from the factory about 5 lbs underweight to allow the owner to bring it up to EXACTLY 165.0lbs.

Re: F18HT Development = Good or Bad? [Re: Jake] #25151
10/16/03 12:52 PM
10/16/03 12:52 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 805
Gainesville, FL 32607 USA
dacarls Offline
old hand
dacarls  Offline
old hand

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 805
Gainesville, FL 32607 USA
Sorry to be slow on comprehension, but who wrote the Bleeding Edge article?


Dacarls:
A-class USA 196, USA 21, H18, H16
"Nothing that's any good works by itself. You got to make the damn thing work"- Thomas Edison
Re: F18HT Development = Good or Bad? [Re: dacarls] #25152
10/16/03 01:07 PM
10/16/03 01:07 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
He was refered to on the main page...

Peter Johnston wrote the article.


Jake Kohl
Re: F18HT Development = Good or Bad? [Re: Jake] #25153
10/16/03 01:11 PM
10/16/03 01:11 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,226
Atlanta
bvining Offline
veteran
bvining  Offline
veteran

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,226
Atlanta
Jake,
Your original question was good or bad? You didnt define good or bad for for who, but if you are interested in a 18HT owners perspective, then here goes:

As a 18HT owner with I am very excited by the development Peter and others are doing to this boat. We had issues with the rudders not kicking up which Randy and others quickly solved this issue with a simple fix. We have an issue with the Jav2 that the rear beam hits in chop, slowing it down, Peter is experimenting with a solution. As far as sails, the class has already determined that the stock Bim sails are fast, faster than a couple of other prototypes that Randy did, but they are not very sturdy and they dont reef. So you dont really need new sails to compete, the BIM Sails are fast.

As far as other people doing development to the HT, I have seen lots of interesting stuff fromt the guys that were going to do the '03 Worrell in terms of rigging. Some of the class members are adding carbon spin poles and carbon booms and mid pole sheeting system. Some are also experimenting with new and different ways to snuff the spin (Randy's tennis racket is an example). I think this all good for the class and in the end, we want to grow the class. So the rules will hopefully work the developement to that end. We have decided that we are going to outlaw solid sails and outlaw getting the boat foil borne (althought I think that would be cool and probably pretty damn fast.)

But, I think that I wont necessarily have to spend a ton of money to be competitive for two reasons. The first is that I can pick and choose the modifications that really add speed and fit for my style of racing. For example I dont think carbon rudder castings will buy you that much speed and around the bouys the current spin snuffer system works great. I am psyched that Peter bought 3 sets of sails, now when I want new sails, I know who to talk to and it will keep my cost down, because I can make an informed choice and hopefully buy the best sails that will last for a couple of years. The second reason I dont think I will need to spend a ton of money to compete is that this boat has a pretty steep learning curve and being a light boat it is easy to mess up go slow. Sailing against the top sailors in this class has quickly shown that they are crushing me on the course because they are tuned into the boat, not because they have tuned the boat to be faster.

In other words, the sailor is making the boat go fast, the boat isnt making sailor go fast. So, no I dont think we will see everyone rushing to do all the mods Peter did. I like the fact that someone else is thinking about these problems/opportunities because I dont have a huge pile of cash to throw at this boat, and I dont have the knowledge to know what the best ideas are, so my plan is to let other people sort it out and only do the really fast mods after they have been really tested and proven.

The thing I like about the 18HT class is that it is open and we have few rules, I like the flexibility to make mods to my boat without worrying if it is class legal. I also like that we have very open communication about the boats. We all seem open and willing to learn and share ideas. I like this.

So, yes I think it will be good for the class. And, no I am not worried that I will have to spend a ton of cash to keep up. Will the difference between a carbon boom and the stock aluminum make you win more races? No, being a better sailor will win more races. And I agree wiht Mary that it will also be good for catsailing. We have added a bunch of guys from monohull and dighy crowd and thats good for the sport. Class building is a whole different topic.

And by the way, thanks for noticing the new web site. We are glad you are all checking it out periodically.

Bill - 18HT class

Re: Oh my god [Re: carlbohannon] #25154
10/16/03 02:21 PM
10/16/03 02:21 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
old hand
Stewart  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
the latest prepregs do not require autoclaves. Vac bagging is within most home builders ability. then one needs an oven that gets to 100C.
Home builders have built these. So its not impossible.

Re: F18HT Development = Good or Bad? [Re: bvining] #25155
10/16/03 02:52 PM
10/16/03 02:52 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 117
Northern VA
bsquared Offline
member
bsquared  Offline
member

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 117
Northern VA
I think that most of this is harmless tinkering, but clearly overkill to get back the 8 pounds. To make it class legal, he's gonna need some lead when he's done (can you buy carbon lead?). A lot of us are threatened by big spenders (quick, name some RICH catsailors other than Nigel and WF), but I agree, we can't and shouldn't legislate dollars. Certainly not in a development class. Sure the boat could drop 20-30 pounds, but then the class has to worry about obsoleting EVERY boat out there. Ain't gonna happen. Don't worry, be happy. The boats ARE gonna get faster, he may just be changing things quicker than most of us could. I admire anyone who sails this at 280 lbs; think I might have bought a smaller-than-max sail and mast :-) Not like he couldn't get another set later... See, I'm sniping at the $ too :-) Could be worse; could be dropping lots more into a lead sled to make it go .1 knot faster. Finally, I'll note that there isn't a real min. wt. 2 person spin boat beachcat class like the A-Cats (unless you count the M20 as it's own class?). There's a market niche to further split the fleets :-) Of course, even the A-Cats COULD get lighter...
Chris

Re: F18HT Development = Good or Bad? [Re: bvining] #25156
10/16/03 03:17 PM
10/16/03 03:17 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Bill,
This is slightly off topic, but I just have one minor problem with the new "U.S." 18HT website. Under "Rules" everything as far as measurements and weights is metric on the website. Now, I am pretty old and it is hard for me to figure the conversions out in my head, so I have to resort to the conversion formulas in the back of my dictionary and the use of a calculator.

If this is indeed a U.S.18HT website, it would be nice to accommodate us uneducated people and put all those numbers into whatever form it is that we call it in this country, like ounces and pounds and feet and square feet and cubic feet and stuff like that.

Just a thought. When you are trying to grow a class and get more people interested, it is going to turn people off when they are reading specs in a language they don't understand.

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Damon Linkous 

Search

Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 431 guests, and 84 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Darryl, zorro, CraigJ, PaulEddo2, AUS180
8150 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics22,404
Posts267,055
Members8,150
Most Online2,167
Dec 19th, 2022
--Advertisement--
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1