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dumb question #258026
03/04/13 11:29 AM
03/04/13 11:29 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline OP
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waterbug_wpb  Offline OP
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so I'm reading on SA about some 50+ boat Melges regatta.

I can't imagine how many bazillion dollars the boat, travel, crew, equipment, and entry fees cost for boats like that... yet they have a good turnout despite that.

So what keeps the (relatively) cheap beachcat regattas from being as well attended?


Jay

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: dumb question [Re: waterbug_wpb] #258028
03/04/13 11:39 AM
03/04/13 11:39 AM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 382
SE MI / NE IN
rehmbo Offline
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rehmbo  Offline
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SE MI / NE IN
Level of athleticism/effort required


Jeff R

H18, C2 USA1193
cramsailing.com
crescentsail.com
Re: dumb question [Re: rehmbo] #258029
03/04/13 11:46 AM
03/04/13 11:46 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,152
tampa, fl
K
ksurfer2 Offline
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ksurfer2  Offline
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K

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Posts: 1,152
tampa, fl
Originally Posted by rehmbo
Level of athleticism/effort required


Have you ever hiked on a Melges 24 when it's blowing. Absolute misery!!!!!!! I have no idea why folks would rather do that than sail in a trap harness!


If your havin girl problems i feel bad for you son
I got 99 problems but my beautiful wife ain't one
Re: dumb question [Re: waterbug_wpb] #258031
03/04/13 01:01 PM
03/04/13 01:01 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Cat sailors are goons


I'm boatless.
Re: dumb question [Re: waterbug_wpb] #258032
03/04/13 01:09 PM
03/04/13 01:09 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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Annapolis, MD
Not dumb... Looked at this a few years ago.

My theory... the classes that race three or more on the team are far more popular... the social dynamics seem easier to manage then two man teams. You can be succesful with a range of skills on the boat... you don't absolutely need two strong sailors... You can still compete with a newbie on the boat as one of 4. ... try that with a spin cat... A newbie = No fun in a competitive race..

The Lightning Class has been strong forever... always leads the OD rankings.

The Melges classes all have great factory promotion behind them.... High profile events that attracted a wide range of sailors at their kick off. The M24 took off with lots of rank and file support... then it elevated to a gran prix level... which saw rank and file support fall off as the pro's took over and the M24 still remains strong at the semi pro level..

the new Melges 20 has a gran prix circuit that already trumps any catamran circuit... but it's not close to the M24 tragectory.

Now look at the J80 class... It is really taking off like wildfire! again... race with 3 or 4 on the team...

My take... these boat fit the market niche...social and competitive.
(They also don't capsize.... people have big issues with capsizes and swiming as part of sailing)

Cats have tried the more then two crew...
The swiss lakes have these corporate sponsored Decions 35s... the class has no rank and file appeal... Why? It's a lot of boat to handle... You don't put a newbie on that boat and survive a breeze.

YMMV


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: dumb question [Re: waterbug_wpb] #258035
03/04/13 01:54 PM
03/04/13 01:54 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 186
wildtsail7 Offline
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wildtsail7  Offline
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You all have some solid points.

But in reality it comes down to one thing.
Melges sailors have owners that have big big bucks and are committed to their campaign without even thinking of the costs. I've been involved with several of these campaigns (sailing on a few and selling stuff to many more) and it blows me away.

The Melges 20 has been considered by some to be a failure especially compared to what the J/70 is doing now. Sure they have a couple well attended Melges 20 regattas, but not many and not like the J/70 numbers.

Re: dumb question [Re: waterbug_wpb] #258037
03/04/13 02:20 PM
03/04/13 02:20 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,430
california
F-18 5150 Offline
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F-18 5150  Offline
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Posts: 1,430
california
I sail on a Melges 24 during the summer months. I like it because I don't pay the bils and he pays for the slip fees buys sails and all I have to do is show up with gloves and sail.

Last edited by F-18 5150; 03/04/13 02:49 PM.

Richard Vilvens
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Re: dumb question [Re: wildtsail7] #258041
03/04/13 03:23 PM
03/04/13 03:23 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Ha, I wondered if the M20 guys thought of their class as successful... compared to the cat world yes... but compared to the Melges standard... not so much.

At the start of the M24 class... It was not a high dollar class.. It is now... and that is part of it's appeal.

Yes. the J70 is taking off... (not the older j80 my flub) Interesting that the j70 is a less technical boat as well

The sociology of 4 on a boat and how much sailing skill you need works.

Last edited by Mark Schneider; 03/04/13 03:30 PM.

crac.sailregattas.com
Re: dumb question [Re: waterbug_wpb] #258045
03/04/13 04:16 PM
03/04/13 04:16 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
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Social??? Have you ever been to a Melges party? There are more women at a Hobie 17 party...

Part of our problem is that our boats are cheap, but not cheap enough. $10,000 plus for a new Hobie 16 (cheapest glass racing boat and the one that started it all) is just too much. Not saying that they can be made for less, but that's a lot of money. Used boats follow in price. Gas prices aren't helping the big regional events, either.

Mike

Re: dumb question [Re: Mark Schneider] #258046
03/04/13 04:19 PM
03/04/13 04:19 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline OP
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waterbug_wpb  Offline OP
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but would a larger crew would cause greater scheduling issues because not everyone can be there all the time?

And do these larger crew boats have better attendance than single-hand boat events (mono and multi)?


Jay

Re: dumb question [Re: brucat] #258055
03/04/13 06:45 PM
03/04/13 06:45 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 807
Hillsborough, NC USA
I
Isotope235 Offline
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Isotope235  Offline
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Hillsborough, NC USA
Originally Posted by brucat
Social??? Have you ever been to a Melges party? There are more women at a Hobie 17 party...

Part of our problem is that our boats are cheap, but not cheap enough. $10,000 plus for a new Hobie 16 (cheapest glass racing boat and the one that started it all) is just too much.

If you want to see women at a Melges 24 regatta, go to the crew weigh-in. grin

Compared to the cost of campaigning an M-24, almost any beachcat looks cheap. Those guys are running on a completely different race budget.

Re: dumb question [Re: brucat] #258056
03/04/13 06:52 PM
03/04/13 06:52 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Originally Posted by brucat
Social??? Have you ever been to a Melges party? There are more women at a Hobie 17 party...

Part of our problem is that our boats are cheap, but not cheap enough. $10,000 plus for a new Hobie 16 (cheapest glass racing boat and the one that started it all) is just too much. Not saying that they can be made for less, but that's a lot of money. Used boats follow in price. Gas prices aren't helping the big regional events, either.

Mike


I remember being at a large mixed regatta at Columbia, SC several years with the M20 came out. I had my 6 month old Nacra F18 (1st gen) that I paid less than $14k for on the beach when several of the guys that owned new M20 came over to look at my boat. They were blown away with the low price of the F18 and couldn't get over how much boat I got for the price. I think they paid north of $25,000 for their Melges 20s.


Jake Kohl
Re: dumb question [Re: Jake] #258057
03/04/13 08:20 PM
03/04/13 08:20 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 490
catandahalf Offline
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Way north of 25K by the time an owner adds sails and electronics. Beware of any owner that lets his Melges 20 live in a slip. For further reading... http://www.americaone.org/news/sailnews/91499-farr40s.html
John Kilroy's story in the Farr 40 world - then watch Morning Light again to see how refined his act is. With Stan Honey, as a navigator, the TP 52 has enjoyed a few victories at sea. In ML Samba catches the kids, then pauses to clean a keel for the drama, only to take the brakes off and win their class in the Trans Pac. JK also owns a Melges 32 named Samba Pa Ti.

The Pegasus story is also related. I saw Phillipe Kahn's Melges 24 rig at the St. Pete NOOD in '06. A trailer for the related sails and gear with all the Pegasus graphics on the side was parked near our Corsair 24. Very cool, but not as cool as Nigel and Alex's Tommy Bahamas trailer. They carried their NACRA 20 and a mini cooper in that one :-)

Yea, if you wanna play keep up with the guy that invented cell phone cameras or designed the navigational software for automobiles...

How about some guy named Ellison?

Money in skilled hands, passionate about the sea, goes far and abroad.

Check out Fairlie Brinkley's story on Sarah and JC in Southwinds magazine this month. Long may they sail!!!

Re: dumb question [Re: catandahalf] #258058
03/04/13 09:59 PM
03/04/13 09:59 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 465
FL
sail7seas Offline
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Posts: 465
FL
Great attendance, for this going one, this week.
http://www.miamisailingweek.com/

Re: dumb question [Re: waterbug_wpb] #258084
03/05/13 11:20 AM
03/05/13 11:20 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,048
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Timbo  Offline
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Sebring, Florida.
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
so I'm reading on SA about some 50+ boat Melges regatta.

I can't imagine how many bazillion dollars the boat, travel, crew, equipment, and entry fees cost for boats like that... yet they have a good turnout despite that.

So what keeps the (relatively) cheap beachcat regattas from being as well attended?


As many have said, Deep Pockets drives the M24 class.

It fits a monohull sweet spot; it's fast(for a keel boat), not too many crew (compared to a 45 footer) and Sexy (if you've never sailed a spin cat!).

I started out racing mono's and got up to the J24, before the M24 came out.

When it first showed up I took a look at one, I think back then (1994?) the base price was over $40K. I took my wife on board a new M24 at a dealer's. She took one look down below and said, "Are you KIDDING ME?? 40 Thousand dollars and there's not even a Pee Bucket down there??!"

I was getting tired of always having to make phone calls on Friday nights to be sure all of my J24 crew would show up Saturday mornings. I went back to dinghy racing, Lasers and JY 15 with my kids, where all I had to worry about was -me- showing up.

Now, if I had super deep pockets, and lots of -reliable- friends to crew it, I would have bought "One of Everything", ie. a big cruising boat, a medium sized racing monohull, an Open 60 trimaran, a Laser, an A cat, etc, but since I don't have deep pockets, I race what I can afford to race, with the only crew I can depend on. Right now that means an F16, Uni.

If I win the lottery, I doubt I'll buy a Melges...anything. Getting good crew to show up would still be a problem, but I will buy an A cat, a new F16, an F18, a Wave, a Hobie 16, a Gunboat 62, a couple windsurfers, and maybe that 135' trimaran that holds the around the world record. Oh, and I'll hire some strippers to crew it!


Blade F16
#777
Re: dumb question [Re: waterbug_wpb] #258085
03/05/13 11:50 AM
03/05/13 11:50 AM

X
xanderwess
Unregistered
xanderwess
Unregistered
X



Oh, and I'll hire some strippers to crew it!

I had not thought of this:
I am heading to get my Powerball ticket right now.

Re: dumb question [Re: ] #258087
03/05/13 12:19 PM
03/05/13 12:19 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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David Ingram  Offline
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Clermont, FL, USA
Originally Posted by xanderwess
Oh, and I'll hire some strippers to crew it!



Nobody loves single moms and supporting their charity more than me, but in a prison at sea with bunch of broken toys... that's just poor planning.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: dumb question [Re: ] #258088
03/05/13 12:21 PM
03/05/13 12:21 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline OP
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waterbug_wpb  Offline OP
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Naples, FL
uh, hello.... strippers climb poles not pull ropes.

don't ask me how I know.


Jay

Re: dumb question [Re: waterbug_wpb] #258092
03/05/13 01:00 PM
03/05/13 01:00 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Northfield Mn
Timbo, why would you want a pay cut like winning the lottery?


I'm boatless.
Re: dumb question [Re: Karl_Brogger] #258094
03/05/13 01:03 PM
03/05/13 01:03 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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David Ingram  Offline
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Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Timbo, why would you want a pay cut like winning the lottery?


Plus he might have to acutally work for a living. Good point Karl!



David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
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