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Starting: Optis vs Hobie 16s... which yields more Adult Sai #260308
06/12/13 03:11 PM
06/12/13 03:11 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Mark Schneider  Offline OP
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Quote
Originally Posted By: Mark Schneider
on the Life Jacket thread...

What world do you live in?

Yes it matters more then skill development! The piece of paper is how you get to the next step. It goes on the resume!

the assumption is that if you have the paper... you have "good enough skills" AND the "powers that be" have covered their butt because you have the papers.



I live in my own little troll world, but thanks for asking!

I was thinking along the lines of little ones (like under 10 years old) rather than the "youth" in general (which I guess would be up to 18 or 20 year olds).

Perhaps I'm too pragmatic, but I suspect the ratio of youth competitors and top level athletes is probably less than 1000:1

With that in mind, I would imagine it would serve any sport far better to focus on "fun-factor" over accolades for all but that 0.5% of truly gifted atheletes.

I respect our local High School football coach who firmly stated that while each player thinks they're the next NFL 1st round draft pick, it was likely that MAYBE 2 in the whole school have a chance at a full scholarship to a Division 1 college. Some may make Division 2, but most will end their football careers with graduation.

I hoped the kids take away the message that there is still fun to be had in the sport, and it's not worth killing yourself, cheating, or bad sportsmanship to get ahead given the remote chance for "success" (in terms of NFL play)

I would like to think that my future crew learn to enjoy sailing as a sport, a pastime, and a culture. Play hard, play fair, know the rules (and don't be afraid to enforce them), but don't leave the fun out of the equation.

I mean, really, who doesn't like to watch Ding pop a gasket when you lee-bow him (which, respectfully is getting less and less), or Karl (the first) get all stoic when his spin pole looks like the letter L, or watching the rise of JC & Sarah, having raced with them so often in the past?

Who hasn't had a really sweet leg, race, regatta that they'll remember the rest of their lives (even if they never won anything)?

Sailing's so far beyond just buoy racing, but we tend to focus our effort there. Perhaps too much?

Jeeze I sound like some tree-hugging, berkenstock wearing liberal. I need to go clean my guns
_________________________
Jay



So... Hobie 16's are the complete opposite of Opti's... Parents have been starting their kids sailing as crew on hobie 16's from day 1... (Eventually kids can race their own H16... at JO's and Hobie Junior NAs )

The Opti world puts a kid in his own boat and has a lot of organized coaching and fleets to climb through.

Which one generates more adult sailors (in your opinion)?

(who would have to worry about a CG approved LJ at a US Sailing chamionship event that requires 100% wearing LJs)


crac.sailregattas.com
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Re: Starting: Optis vs Hobie 16s... which yields more Adult Sai [Re: Mark Schneider] #260309
06/12/13 04:01 PM
06/12/13 04:01 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,246
Orlando, FL
tback Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider


Which one generates more adult sailors (in your opinion)?



Adult sailors in general: Opti's

Adult Cat Sailors: H16


USA 777
Re: Starting: Optis vs Hobie 16s... which yields more Adult Sai [Re: tback] #260314
06/12/13 04:38 PM
06/12/13 04:38 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Mark Schneider  Offline OP
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Perhaps.

I have a tough time finding the generation of cat sailors
that started with their family on Hobie 16s among the sailors that I know... Perhaps the Hobie class has some knowledge of how many of their current class members sailed as a kid on a Hobie.

The issue is... does one system have a better conversion rate of junior to adult sailor then the other.



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Starting: Optis vs Hobie 16s... which yields more Adult Sai [Re: Mark Schneider] #260318
06/12/13 06:56 PM
06/12/13 06:56 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,246
Orlando, FL
tback Offline
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I think you need to be more specific with what type of adult sailor are you interested in?


USA 777
Re: Starting: Optis vs Hobie 16s... which yields more Adult Sai [Re: tback] #260319
06/12/13 08:47 PM
06/12/13 08:47 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,582
“an island in the Pacific....
hobie1616 Offline
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I teach in our local YC juniors program. We started out using Sabots and have pretty much converted to Open Bic. There's been a few tries at introducing Waves but we don't have the storage space. There is also no multihull action other than tour boats here so there's no path for multihull growth.

We do get the kids out on the big boats whenever possible and a few of the older ones have gotten crew positions.


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Re: Starting: Optis vs Hobie 16s... which yields more Adult Sai [Re: Mark Schneider] #260330
06/13/13 07:47 AM
06/13/13 07:47 AM
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Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline
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To answer the OP, Opti's.

I learned to sail on a friends H14 at age 11. Transitioned to the whole FJ/420 scene for high school/college, then quickly got back into beach cats with the N20 and now F18 as an adult. My current helm learned to sail and race in college and again primarily sailed FJ's/420's. She is a very good sailor but has learned a lot racing a high performance beach cat.

That is the general issue with U.S Sailing today. The program still has not figured out how to get more people racing after college, in the Olympics etc. There is a huge disconnect between college sailing and the real-world. Most college sailors enjoy sailing so will do it post-grad but on what boat is the question. Not enough have exposure to fast boats or tweaky Olympic type boats and I still don't see U.S Sailing changing this to get more sailors on the performance dinghy and/or Olympic circuit, it's still the elite playing that game and you have to pay $$$.

Last edited by samc99us; 06/13/13 07:48 AM.

Scorpion F18
Re: Starting: Optis vs Hobie 16s... which yields more Adult Sai [Re: samc99us] #260338
06/13/13 08:50 AM
06/13/13 08:50 AM
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Originally Posted by samc99us
To answer the OP, Opti's.

I learned to sail on a friends H14 at age 11. Transitioned to the whole FJ/420 scene for high school/college, then quickly got back into beach cats with the N20 and now F18 as an adult. My current helm learned to sail and race in college and again primarily sailed FJ's/420's. She is a very good sailor but has learned a lot racing a high performance beach cat.

That is the general issue with U.S Sailing today. The program still has not figured out how to get more people racing after college, in the Olympics etc. There is a huge disconnect between college sailing and the real-world. Most college sailors enjoy sailing so will do it post-grad but on what boat is the question. Not enough have exposure to fast boats or tweaky Olympic type boats and I still don't see U.S Sailing changing this to get more sailors on the performance dinghy and/or Olympic circuit, it's still the elite playing that game and you have to pay $$$.


From your post Optis weren't a factor in either of your (you or your helm) formative years, so why choose it.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

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If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
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Re: Starting: Optis vs Hobie 16s... which yields more Adult Sai [Re: samc99us] #260342
06/13/13 08:57 AM
06/13/13 08:57 AM
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tampa, fl
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ksurfer2 Offline
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Originally Posted by samc99us
That is the general issue with U.S Sailing today. The program still has not figured out how to get more people racing after college, in the Olympics etc. There is a huge disconnect between college sailing and the real-world. Most college sailors enjoy sailing so will do it post-grad but on what boat is the question. Not enough have exposure to fast boats or tweaky Olympic type boats and I still don't see U.S Sailing changing this to get more sailors on the performance dinghy and/or Olympic circuit, it's still the elite playing that game and you have to pay $$$.


Oh come on. I know that bashing US Sailing is a popular activity on this forum, but blaming US Sailing for kids not continuing to sail after college is rediculous. It's not like college sailors live in a bubble! Chances are at some point in their sailing career, they have gone to a yacht club and seen a high performance boat (F18, 49er, Acat, etc), flipped through a magazine and seen pictures, talked to other sailors about their experiences on other boats, etc.

You found a way to further your sailing after college sailing, as did I. I can't speak for you, but US Sailing had nothing to do with that! I feel sorry for the sailor that gave up sailing after college and woke up 20 years later and realized all the great sailing that they missed and said "damn you US Sailing, it's your fault I missed out on all the great sailing opportunities!"


If your havin girl problems i feel bad for you son
I got 99 problems but my beautiful wife ain't one
Re: Starting: Optis vs Hobie 16s... which yields more Adult Sai [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #260343
06/13/13 08:58 AM
06/13/13 08:58 AM
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Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline
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Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by samc99us
To answer the OP, Opti's.

I learned to sail on a friends H14 at age 11. Transitioned to the whole FJ/420 scene for high school/college, then quickly got back into beach cats with the N20 and now F18 as an adult. My current helm learned to sail and race in college and again primarily sailed FJ's/420's. She is a very good sailor but has learned a lot racing a high performance beach cat.

That is the general issue with U.S Sailing today. The program still has not figured out how to get more people racing after college, in the Olympics etc. There is a huge disconnect between college sailing and the real-world. Most college sailors enjoy sailing so will do it post-grad but on what boat is the question. Not enough have exposure to fast boats or tweaky Olympic type boats and I still don't see U.S Sailing changing this to get more sailors on the performance dinghy and/or Olympic circuit, it's still the elite playing that game and you have to pay $$$.


From your post Optis weren't a factor in either of your (you or your helm) formative years, so why choose it.


Exactly. Lots of young sailors on the platform but how many continue?


Scorpion F18
Re: Starting: Optis vs Hobie 16s... which yields more Adult Sai [Re: ksurfer2] #260346
06/13/13 09:05 AM
06/13/13 09:05 AM
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Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline
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Originally Posted by ksurfer2
Originally Posted by samc99us
That is the general issue with U.S Sailing today. The program still has not figured out how to get more people racing after college, in the Olympics etc. There is a huge disconnect between college sailing and the real-world. Most college sailors enjoy sailing so will do it post-grad but on what boat is the question. Not enough have exposure to fast boats or tweaky Olympic type boats and I still don't see U.S Sailing changing this to get more sailors on the performance dinghy and/or Olympic circuit, it's still the elite playing that game and you have to pay $$$.


Oh come on. I know that bashing US Sailing is a popular activity on this forum, but blaming US Sailing for kids not continuing to sail after college is rediculous. It's not like college sailors live in a bubble! Chances are at some point in their sailing career, they have gone to a yacht club and seen a high performance boat (F18, 49er, Acat, etc), flipped through a magazine and seen pictures, talked to other sailors about their experiences on other boats, etc.

You found a way to further your sailing after college sailing, as did I. I can't speak for you, but US Sailing had nothing to do with that! I feel sorry for the sailor that gave up sailing after college and woke up 20 years later and realized all the great sailing that they missed and said "damn you US Sailing, it's your fault I missed out on all the great sailing opportunities!"


I didn't intend to blame U.S Sailing for peoples own choices. I think they are doing more to support multihull sailing than in the past. Yacht clubs are more open to the boats. The classes are seeing growth, we have new catamaran sailors out every week at our club.

My real point is the FJ/420 is a decent spring board to the F16/F18 classes. I haven't been around the Opti scene enough to really comment but I know it is an OK starting point for moving into planning dinghy's. The Hobie 16 really sails in it's own world. The best skills transferred out of that class IMO is a very good understanding of mast rake, how to move around on a 2-wire boat, and downwind apparent wind sailing. A modern dagger board beachcat handles much more closely to a planning dinghy, which is good for us as it's easier to transfer.


Scorpion F18
Re: Starting: Optis vs Hobie 16s... which yields more Adult Sai [Re: hobie1616] #260358
06/13/13 02:30 PM
06/13/13 02:30 PM
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Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Originally Posted by hobie1616
There is also no multihull action other than tour boats here so there's no path for multihull growth.


Maybe I'm jumping to conclusions, but does there always have to be a path?

I learned helm on a sunfish but didn't get "back" into sport-boat sailing until injuries snuffed out my windsurfing hobby.

All the while, however, I had access to a family 4ksb (30 - 36 footers) over the years, and some racing on some J boats and such which kept the "race" bug in my head.

Sport boats, especially multihulls became attractive because they are cheap (compared to a bigger boat), you don't have to pay for slip space,don't need big crews, and they're fast and fun.

Would I have participated in sailing more if I were part of a "path" in my youth? Perhaps.

Would I enjoy sailing/racing as a hobby/pastime more if I were on a path? Not sure, but probably not if racing were the only thing I were doing ...


Jay

Re: Starting: Optis vs Hobie 16s... which yields more Adult Sai [Re: Mark Schneider] #260359
06/13/13 03:43 PM
06/13/13 03:43 PM
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Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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We all know there is no contest when it comes to the question "where do sailors get their start Opti vs. H16?"

What am I supposed to getting out of this thread?


David Ingram
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Re: Starting: Optis vs Hobie 16s... which yields more Adult Sai [Re: waterbug_wpb] #260367
06/13/13 05:12 PM
06/13/13 05:12 PM
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“an island in the Pacific....
hobie1616 Offline
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“an island in the Pacific....
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Originally Posted by hobie1616
There is also no multihull action other than tour boats here so there's no path for multihull growth.


Maybe I'm jumping to conclusions, but does there always have to be a path?

No there doesn't. But, if someone or a few someones have cleared the path (bought a few boats and sail them regularly), it attracts other potential hikers to follow along.

We're seeing that with our junior sailing team on Open Bics. We hold practice either inside or just over the reef in Lahaina. We're getting people walking into the YC asking for info to get their kids into the program or inquiring where they can buy a boat.


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Re: Starting: Optis vs Hobie 16s... which yields more Adult Sai [Re: hobie1616] #260370
06/13/13 06:08 PM
06/13/13 06:08 PM
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Is that the reef the surfers use? Been there and saw some hot surfing off that reef.

Re: Starting: Optis vs Hobie 16s... which yields more Adult Sai [Re: hobie1616] #260392
06/14/13 09:23 AM
06/14/13 09:23 AM
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Naples, FL
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Okay, I see that... The "Path" could be as simple as having boats out there and sailors willing to get others out on the water...

so why be so snobbish and thumb your nose at non-multihull youth activities? I know most of us aren't that obtuse, but it would seem that bashing US Sailing for "Opti-mom" syndrome seems a little far fetched...

Bash the individual helicopter parent, not everyone else working for the greater good...

The weather has been so grand here lately I've been trolling the beach for rentals to take out. Waves are fun, and it's hilarious to see the rental dude hook a rope up to one and drag it to the water with his 4-wheeler...

You can tell multihull sailors from tourists by the way they cringe when the rental guy does that (like fingers on a chalkboard). The tourists see nothing of it... smile


Jay

Re: Starting: Optis vs Hobie 16s... which yields more Adult Sai [Re: catandahalf] #260398
06/14/13 11:49 AM
06/14/13 11:49 AM
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“an island in the Pacific....
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“an island in the Pacific....
Originally Posted by catandahalf
Is that the reef the surfers use? Been there and saw some hot surfing off that reef.

The surfers are just outside the reef next to the harbor channel. We've had a strong south swell the last few weeks which makes for some great surfing and white knuckle rides on the tour boats leaving the harbor.


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