Has anybody try using the F16HP Class logo on their sail? The logo may look nice on paper but it is a very impractical logo when it is applied to a sail. It's not reversible and on a transparent sail with the F16 logo in the same place on both sides of the sail, the logo become unrecognizable because the 2 images conflict with each other. On an A-Cat, Tornado and Taipan, you cut a normal image and a reverse image of the logo from the insignia cloth and you apply them to the sail so they coincide with each other. You can't do that with the F16HP Logo.

The other complaint I have with the logo is it has 7 elements which is far too many. For an A-Cat and Tornado, the element count is 3 while on the Taipan 4.9 the count is 4 if you count the "4.9" as 3 elements. Maybe we should loose the 2 parallel bars under the F16 to at least help reduce the element count to 5. Getting the spacing and alignment between the elements just right is also not very easy since there are not many straight edge to use as guides.

Just thought I would bring this issue to everyone's attention. I don't have any alternative designs that would resolve this issue.

Jennifer Lindsay

Hi Jennifer,

Good idea to chat to Wouter & Eric about the logo : a few months ago I sent a proposal to modify the logo slightly to make it a bit more 'agressive'. I don`t know if it has been rejected, accepted or just put on hold.
The logo itself is probably best used on one side of a clear sail only, if the sail is clear then the reverse side will be recognisable through the mylar, albeit backwards.
If placed on the clew reinforcement patch, there`s normally enough layers of material to stop the sail being transparent, so you could put them on back-to-back and not see the reversed logo through the sail.
If you`re making the logo yourself from stickyback dacron, you could cut it out of a square piece carefully so you don`t cut through the backing sheet. That way the alignment should take care of itself : Place the whole square onto the sail, peel off the backing sheet & remove the bits you don`t want. You also get clear plastic laminating sheets which you could place over the sticker beforehand, then remove the backing sheet, then the waste. Maybe chat to a signmaker about this method. Chat to Jake Kohl (apologies for incorrect spelling), I believe he knows/is someone who can make stickers for the class at a good price. You can find him on the Open Forum.
Hope this helps.

Cheers
Steve

I confess quiltyness in this; I've been sloppy on this subject over the last months. Jennifer I agree with you comments and indeed Steve, Eric and I discusses these issues and briefly worked on better alternatives; this died out because of my lack of involvement.

Personally I would rather like to have a picture of some sort rather than characters is a element that leans against the direction of motion as the current logo does when viewed from the starboard side.

I also let things cool over time a bit so that this discussion could be reopened at a later time. Maybe the time is now.

Having said this I think the current logo is usuable for documents (measurement certificates) and the website; just not as tne main class logo in the mainsail.

I'm open to suggestions ; I still have the one sof everybody from a year ago, maybe I should present them ones again to get the creative juices going ?

Wouter

Jennifer, Wouter, Steve, and class...

Steve came up with a very nice logo that we had been fiddling with a few months back. I like that way it looks, but there are some drawbacks--it is a bit complex and is non-reversible. This is probably a good time to bring the logo issue back up, as you've suggested. First off, logo is too general of a term; INSIGNIA is probably a better descriptor of what we're looking for.

First step is to address the purpose of having the insignia/logo--the most practical design can then follow.

I believe the purpose of the insignia is two-fold:

1. Provide an easily recognizable identifier for boats sailing in the class, whether on the water, on the beach, or in photos.
2. Act as a "certificate of conformity" to the F16 class rules and simultaneously act as a "membership card" to the international F16 catamaran class.

The simpler the design the better. The insignia obviously must contain the three characters "F16." (At this point, the "HP" is not necessary as most folks do not identify F16 with Hobie 16 or Prindle 16 but with higher tech designs. Heck, if they want to add a spin, let them sail with us!) For tradition and to connect with other catamaran classes insignias, two bars underscoring the three characters would be beneficial. I think everyone can agree on these two basic starting points. I think they are essential to communicating the size and type of boat. But now we get into the subjective aspects:

Should there be a mascot or character associated with it?

Should the letters be tilted to give the impression of speed?

Should a border be added to give definition to the insignia?

After closely observing sail insignias for the last several months (since this was last brought up), I believe the F16 class insignia should be as simple as possible. I say "no" to all the subjective issues. K-I-S-S. Let's leave the mascots, fancy fonts, slanty or stylized letters, etc. to the actual boat marques (e.g. the Taipan snake-like "T", cobras, mosquitos, zip-0s (whatever they are)).

I believe we should stick with a simple "F16" in upright, sans serif letters underscored with two parallel bars. That's it. It should be large (10x10"?) and may be applied to only one side of the sail since most of our sails are see-through and the insignia would easily be read/recognized in reverse (we can all read F16 backwards, right?).

Such an insignia would meet the 2 criteria and would offer nothing objectionable since it doesn't involve problems with foxes (see post archives on the subject), slanting/irreversibility (see Jennifer's concern above), stylization (I liked the cyclone "F" but not everyone sees the "F" in it), etc. It would get the job done, be easy to produce and apply, and offer a unifying graphic to represent the class.

I like Eric's idea of keeping it simple. Based on Eric's description of the simple insignia, I drew up the attached insignia.

Jennifer

Greg Goodall is already using a similar style insignia on the Taipan F16HP mains and jib he is making. See attached.

Jennifer

You could put the logo on an opaque circle or oval and have one on each side of the sail. Then it would be easy to read from both sides.
See attached

I think the approach that Greg Goodall has taken is an excellent one. As this is a multimanufacturer class the sailors and manufacturers are likely want to to show off the type of boat they are sailing/have manufactured. The Taipan F16 insignia looks good. A Nacra "N" with the same 'F16' addition would suit the Nacra F16 should one ever eventuate. Perhaps a Ventilo 'V' or whatever they use plus the addition of 'F16'. The Mosquito insignia plus 'F16' etc.

I don't think the class necessarily needs an insignia of its own to be displayed on all boats.

Rob.

I disagree..

The spirit of the class rules as i understand them is not for this to ba a manufacturer class. The taipan was not originaly designed nor is it maximized under the rules of the F-16 class. I-f someone were to build a boat of there own design and build the boat in thier own backyard that person would be the manufacturer not some huge company who's sole purpose is to turn a profit. Mind you designers competing against eachother will undoubtably cause further development in the class/ faster craft, but the spirit of the rules as i read them does absolutely call for the class to have it's own insignia or logo...

ricky

That's just what I had in mind, Jennifer. Only I would bring the digits closer and remove the serif on the "1" just as on Michael's old boat (Taipan #032).

Ricky, I agree with your thoughts about the manufacturers. Let's leave the neato designs, like mascots, to the manufacturers. One-offs, like Wouter's Typhoon, can make up their own cool sail logos.

I would prefer only one insignia on one side of the sail since it would be easily read in reverse through our see-through sails.

To reiterate, the insignia will be helpful for two purposes:
1. Provide a distinct graphic to easily identify the F16 boats on the water and on the beach and to help unify and promote the class.
2. Act as a "certificate" of proof that a boat complies with the international F16 formula rules.

It appears that there are enough boats in various parts of the world to proceed with making the insignia. I defer to the folks in charge (international and country reps) on finalizing the design and getting it made. From a logistics point of view, it would seem easiest for an agreed-upon insignia design to be distributed electronically (eg as a TIFF file) and the pockets of F16s in each country can have their own made. Size and colors should also be standardized (eg 10"; black for light sails, white for dark sails). The cost will depend on volume but in the US will likely be about $10 each if about 15-20 are made. That's about the same as a movie ticket around here. So there shouldn't be any griping about the cost.

I agree with ALL of the above posts, even though they disagree with one another.
Let me explain :
The design of the class insignia should be dictated by the purpose it serves, rather than just be a function of what is easiest & simplest to manufacture. If that were the overriding factor then we would all be sailing Hobie 16`s.
Since that is clearly not the case, let`s explore further.
According to my understainding, the logo / insignia serves many functions :
1) Identifies boats within the class for regatta scoring purposes.
2) Identifies members of the class, ie boats that qualify within the rules of the class.
3) Promotes the class at open regattas (create awareness)
4) Show the class as an exciting, innovative, new class.
5) Serves as a logo for one-off boats built within the class rules, that have no class of their own.

Having said that, we need to test the prospective logo designs against the criteria which which is listed above :
A simple 'F16' logo in standard font is easy, simple & cheap to make & apply to sails. Does it satisfy any of the criteria though ?
1) Yes. Although non-members can apply the same lettering to their sails & confuse race officers as to who are legitimate members of the class. (ie sail F16 compliant boats)
2) No - Anyone can make the same lettering & put it on their sails (it`s cheap & easy, remember !) Boats that don`t qualify under the rules can slap a 'F16' emblem on their sails & cause problems for those legitimate members.
3) Yes - But some 'false advertising' will take place (see points above). This will dilute the integrity of the class.
4) No.
5) Well, maybe, but I don`t think I`d like plain old lettering as my class emblem if I had a one-off built specifically for the class.

When tested against these criteria it`s easy to see that 'the simpler the better' is not always the right approach. Having said that the criteria for the logo above are as I understand them, and may differ from other peoples viewpoint entirely.
I believe that we need a stylised design that showcases our class, identifies us easily on the water and on the beach, and is exciting to look at as well, but then I`m in the design industry, and look at things a bit differently to most.
I think Wouter`s design really acchieved most of the criteria well, and suggested an exciting holding shape for it, since others were starting to put it in circular holding shapes etc, which wasn`t working. It was never meant to read the same from both sides through a clear mylar sail - if that were one of the criteria then we shoud have called the class '0Y0' or '8W8', and not 'F16' - it is quite clearly not reversible. The fact that the holding shape was unique would help to identify the logo from either side, even before the boat is close enough to read lettering.
That`s my understanding of the purpose of the logo.
But then, it might take 15 minutes longer to put on the sail.

Cheers
Steve

Further to my last post, herewith the suggested logo (yes, it does have MORE elements !)

....And how it would look reversed through a mylar sail.

I have you logo Steve and I think you did indeed come up with an elegant solution.

I have received a new logo design by Ricky (a to be new addition to the class I believe).

I'm currently involved in the wrapping up of the bankruptcy of the company I work for and when that is done then I will place all the proposals entered on a website and we can all start discussing the various merits and drawback. I think I will use large part of your post as well. before we get discuss pro's and con;s we need to agree upon what the logo is intended to achieve. A good point.

My main point here is that I want to request a little more time; Obviously my head is somewhere else at this time.

Wouter