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Capsize management in a breeze #263563
09/11/13 06:09 AM
09/11/13 06:09 AM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 382
SE MI / NE IN
rehmbo Offline OP
enthusiast
rehmbo  Offline OP
enthusiast

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 382
SE MI / NE IN
I hesitate to post this as it reveals my lack of skill/experience smile

Made a stupid mistake at the gate in some breeze and ended up going over. Un-cleated the main, traveler, and jib and righted the boat within a few seconds.

The challenging part came when the boat took off on a nice broad reach with my crew and I still in the water hanging on to the front beam. I'm in pretty decent shape, but the speed/drag was far too much to heave myself up. We both tried moving to the windward side to try to get the boat to round up, but no joy. Finally, my gymnast son was somehow able to hoist himself up, get back to the tiller, and head up. Exhausted, I finally climbed up. All ended well.

This is the first time this has happened to me, so I had a couple questions:

1) How to prevent the runaway train in the first place.

2) Best way to recover if you can't get over the front beam.

Regarding #1 - Should the main stay cleated, just eased a bit? Seems like the balance of pressure was too far forward. I couldn't sheet-out the jib any more (even tried while I was hanging from the beam).

Regarding #2, I had a couple thoughts. a) a preventative idea would have the crew stay on the lower hull and climb on the tramp once we're sure its coming up. Or if its too late, b) Hand-over-hand down the righting line to the back beam where I can grab the tiller cross bar and get it to head up.

Any other thoughts? Appreciate your input/advice.


Jeff R

H18, C2 USA1193
cramsailing.com
crescentsail.com
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Capsize management in a breeze [Re: rehmbo] #263569
09/11/13 07:13 AM
09/11/13 07:13 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
Originally Posted by rehmbo
I hesitate to post this as it reveals my lack of skill/experience smile

Made a stupid mistake at the gate in some breeze and ended up going over. Un-cleated the main, traveler, and jib and righted the boat within a few seconds.

The challenging part came when the boat took off on a nice broad reach with my crew and I still in the water hanging on to the front beam. I'm in pretty decent shape, but the speed/drag was far too much to heave myself up. We both tried moving to the windward side to try to get the boat to round up, but no joy. Finally, my gymnast son was somehow able to hoist himself up, get back to the tiller, and head up. Exhausted, I finally climbed up. All ended well.

This is the first time this has happened to me, so I had a couple questions:

1) How to prevent the runaway train in the first place.

2) Best way to recover if you can't get over the front beam.

Regarding #1 - Should the main stay cleated, just eased a bit? Seems like the balance of pressure was too far forward. I couldn't sheet-out the jib any more (even tried while I was hanging from the beam).

Regarding #2, I had a couple thoughts. a) a preventative idea would have the crew stay on the lower hull and climb on the tramp once we're sure its coming up. Or if its too late, b) Hand-over-hand down the righting line to the back beam where I can grab the tiller cross bar and get it to head up.

Any other thoughts? Appreciate your input/advice.


I/we use #2. I also move to the back of the boat so I can steer the boat into the wind if the smaller team member misses their opportunity to get on the boat. Once my team member is on and has stablelized the boat I move to the windward outside hull and haul myself onboard with the trap handle. For me this is the most efficient way to get on the boat and it conserves my energy, I'm 51 and overweight and I sail on an F18 so if I can do it anyone can.



David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Capsize management in a breeze [Re: rehmbo] #263570
09/11/13 07:22 AM
09/11/13 07:22 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
Carpal Tunnel
pgp  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
Grabbing the tiller cross bar will likely break it. Don't ask...


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Capsize management in a breeze [Re: rehmbo] #263573
09/11/13 07:38 AM
09/11/13 07:38 AM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 774
Greenville SC
bacho Offline
old hand
bacho  Offline
old hand

Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 774
Greenville SC
I've gone to the back of the boat and held on to the foot strap and steered the boat with my other hand a few times. The i20 was probably easier to board in the back than the newer f18 boats though.

Re: Capsize management in a breeze [Re: David Ingram] #263574
09/11/13 07:40 AM
09/11/13 07:40 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
This is not a stupid problem. I've been there too...barreling across Charleston Harbor by myself hanging onto a rudder. The newer boats like to bare away with no weight onboard and sails eased. I suspect, however, that if you leave any sheet on the main that the boat will likely continue to roll over and re-capsize when you right it.

If I'm on a course race where help is available, here's my process: the first thing I try to do is get a crew on the low hull and have them roll over the hull as the boat comes up so they're on the deck ready to get things under control. If that fails, I make a solid effort to make sure I'm clear of any lines and QUICKLY duck under the hull (with a foot on the daggerboard if possible) and get to a trap line before the boat has a chance to start accelerating.

If I'm in a distance race where help may not be available, I came up with a system a couple of years ago where I had a pocket sewn into the bottom of my trampoline that houses a "drift sock", some line, and two carabiners. If we capsize in breeze that leaves us at risk of the bear-away happening - or if one of us got separated in the capsize, the idea is that the bitter end of the line for the drift sock is clipped to the dolphin striker and a second flow-through carabiner clipped to one of the forestay bridles. Then the drift sock is thrown off the bow. It will do a couple of things - 1) it keeps the bow oriented into the wind to make single handed righting easier. and 2) keeps the bow to the wind once righted so you don't risk having the boat bear away. Once the boat is righted, you haul in the sock (from the line clipped to the dolphin striker) and can just leave it dangling at the forestay while you go back to pick up your crew.


Jake Kohl
Re: Capsize management in a breeze [Re: bacho] #263575
09/11/13 07:41 AM
09/11/13 07:41 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
Originally Posted by bacho
I've gone to the back of the boat and held on to the foot strap and steered the boat with my other hand a few times. The i20 was probably easier to board in the back than the newer f18 boats though.


That's how I drive it when in the water too, and yes the back of an N20 is easier to deal with than the back of an F18.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Capsize management in a breeze [Re: rehmbo] #263583
09/11/13 09:00 AM
09/11/13 09:00 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
If everything is loose (as it should be), hanging onto the dolphin striker crossbar near the windward hull should cause the boat to pivot into the wind right away.

The other thing to consider is the angle at which you started your righting attempt. Ideally, you want the wind to be ahead of the mast when the boat is on its side. 90 degrees, or wind behind the mast will put the boat instantly on a reaching angle when it's righted.

As mentioned, we've all been there. Like anything else, the best thing is to practice under controlled circumstances. Capsizing a boat is usually the last thing anyone wants to do intentionally, but the peace of mind is well worth it in the long run. I wish I didn't ignore this advice when younger.

Hope this helps.


Mike

Re: Capsize management in a breeze [Re: rehmbo] #263584
09/11/13 09:25 AM
09/11/13 09:25 AM

M
MN3
Unregistered
MN3
Unregistered
M



to get back on my mystere 5.5 I grab a trap handle .... and get my feet on board first... one they are on the hull I can pull my torso up and on the tramp

Re: Capsize management in a breeze [Re: rehmbo] #263585
09/11/13 09:26 AM
09/11/13 09:26 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 139
Hernando, Florida
M
Mlcreek Offline
member
Mlcreek  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 139
Hernando, Florida
For what it's worth. After loosing my crew at Hiram's a couple of years ago, he went floating by grabbing at the tiller and rudders to no avail. Afterwards I went back and tied a line from rear beam bolt to bolt. I laced slack in the tramp ties going to the back side of the beam. In other words I have slack loops tucked up in the lacing, so when you go over, now you can pull the line down and it drags behind the boat just past the tiller tie arm. This allows you to drift under the tramp and catch it going out the back side and right at the tiller/rudders. Now, got to see if it works. smile

Last edited by Mlcreek; 09/11/13 09:26 AM.

Forrest
I-20
USA 645

" There ain't enough rum in the drum!"
Re: Capsize management in a breeze [Re: Mlcreek] #263586
09/11/13 09:58 AM
09/11/13 09:58 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
Originally Posted by Mlcreek
Now, got to see if it works. smile


mental note: beware of skipper tossing crew overboard unexpectedly under the guise of "trying to see if it works"...


Jay

Re: Capsize management in a breeze [Re: brucat] #263592
09/11/13 10:37 AM
09/11/13 10:37 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,121
Eastern NC, USA
T
tshan Offline
old hand
tshan  Offline
old hand
T

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,121
Eastern NC, USA
Originally Posted by brucat
If everything is loose (as it should be), hanging onto the dolphin striker crossbar near the windward hull should cause the boat to pivot into the wind right away.


I was always taught to go hang on the dolphin striker on the windward hull to keep the boat from continuing to roll over. It does make sense that it also creates a pivot point. I really cannot think of a time where the boat tried to sail off without us onboard - it has probably happened but I don't recall it.


Tom
Re: Capsize management in a breeze [Re: rehmbo] #263594
09/11/13 10:55 AM
09/11/13 10:55 AM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 382
SE MI / NE IN
rehmbo Offline OP
enthusiast
rehmbo  Offline OP
enthusiast

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 382
SE MI / NE IN
In our case, we hung on to the dolphin striker immediately as the upper hull came down. Boat took off on us anyway. I don't think we righted at the wrong angle - perhaps an untimely wave pushed us that way. Regardless, we only had about 5 seconds between "up" and "moving quick..."

Frankly I was quite surprised. I've righted my TheMightyHobie18 more times than I care to admit and never had this issue...

Edit: I know the difference is due to the self tacking jib.

Last edited by rehmbo; 09/11/13 10:57 AM. Reason: added comment

Jeff R

H18, C2 USA1193
cramsailing.com
crescentsail.com
Re: Capsize management in a breeze [Re: rehmbo] #263595
09/11/13 11:28 AM
09/11/13 11:28 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
Originally Posted by rehmbo
In our case, we hung on to the dolphin striker immediately as the upper hull came down. Boat took off on us anyway. I don't think we righted at the wrong angle - perhaps an untimely wave pushed us that way. Regardless, we only had about 5 seconds between "up" and "moving quick..."

Frankly I was quite surprised. I've righted my TheMightyHobie18 more times than I care to admit and never had this issue...

Edit: I know the difference is due to the self tacking jib.


5 seconds is it (if you're lucky), once the boat is up you need to execute whatever plan you have to get back onboard otherwise you're off on Mr. Toads Wild Ride.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Capsize management in a breeze [Re: rehmbo] #263596
09/11/13 11:28 AM
09/11/13 11:28 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
Carpal Tunnel
pgp  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
I've only had this problem with the F16, which happens to be the only flat top sail I've owned.

It happens more often than not.

Last edited by pgp; 09/11/13 11:29 AM.

Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Capsize management in a breeze [Re: David Ingram] #263597
09/11/13 11:49 AM
09/11/13 11:49 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 890
Dunedin Causeway, FL
David Parker Offline
old hand
David Parker  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 890
Dunedin Causeway, FL
Quote
...you're off on Mr. Toads Wild Ride.


You ARE old!
MTWR has been closed since 1998.
(See, Siri is good for something.)

Re: Capsize management in a breeze [Re: David Ingram] #263598
09/11/13 12:17 PM
09/11/13 12:17 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by rehmbo
In our case, we hung on to the dolphin striker immediately as the upper hull came down. Boat took off on us anyway. I don't think we righted at the wrong angle - perhaps an untimely wave pushed us that way. Regardless, we only had about 5 seconds between "up" and "moving quick..."

Frankly I was quite surprised. I've righted my TheMightyHobie18 more times than I care to admit and never had this issue...

Edit: I know the difference is due to the self tacking jib.


5 seconds is it (if you're lucky), once the boat is up you need to execute whatever plan you have to get back onboard otherwise you're off on Mr. Toads Wild Ride.


Exactly. At the moment the crew doesn't make it on the hull, I'm working toward my duck under the hull to get to the outside. You don't have long (which is one of several reasons I don't hook into the righting line).


Jake Kohl
Re: Capsize management in a breeze [Re: David Parker] #263599
09/11/13 12:32 PM
09/11/13 12:32 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
Originally Posted by David Parker
Quote
...you're off on Mr. Toads Wild Ride.


You ARE old!
MTWR has been closed since 1998.
(See, Siri is good for something.)


Yes I am but I have a huge dong.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Capsize management in a breeze [Re: David Ingram] #263600
09/11/13 12:35 PM
09/11/13 12:35 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by David Parker
Quote
...you're off on Mr. Toads Wild Ride.


You ARE old!
MTWR has been closed since 1998.
(See, Siri is good for something.)


Yes I am but I have a huge dong.


That's what gravity does for you...it just takes a while.


Jake Kohl
Re: Capsize management in a breeze [Re: David Parker] #263612
09/11/13 01:27 PM
09/11/13 01:27 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
Originally Posted by David Parker
[

You ARE old!
MTWR has been closed since 1998.
(See, Siri is good for something.)


Yeah, but Dumbo's ride is still there.

Sadly, the Delta "If you had wings" ride (the only one that didn't require TICKETS) is gone...

For you fellow old-farts, remember those ticket books? You'd be stuck with about 10 "A" tickets, but burn up the "E" tickets fast on Space Mountain and the like...

Oh, and the go-carts are still cranking after all this time. But Future-ville (or whatever they call that section) looks a little dated (George Jetson).

I will say for as old as the FL park is they do an outstanding job of keeping it from looking that old.

Last edited by waterbug_wpb; 09/11/13 01:29 PM.

Jay

Re: Capsize management in a breeze [Re: tshan] #263623
09/11/13 02:49 PM
09/11/13 02:49 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
Originally Posted by tshan
Originally Posted by brucat
If everything is loose (as it should be), hanging onto the dolphin striker crossbar near the windward hull should cause the boat to pivot into the wind right away.


I was always taught to go hang on the dolphin striker on the windward hull to keep the boat from continuing to roll over. It does make sense that it also creates a pivot point. I really cannot think of a time where the boat tried to sail off without us onboard - it has probably happened but I don't recall it.


It's all sort of automatic to me now (having done it way too many times), so it may not be coming across correctly.

The idea is, once the boat starts coming up, get to the old bottom hull (when capsized), which will be the new windward hull (when righted), pulling down on the dolphin striker cross-piece.

That should kill two birds: puts you in the right place to keep it from rolling all the way over, and for you to be the pivot point to make it turn into the wind.

Mike

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